Few ZGrams have caused such a vigorious write-in to the Zundelsite as my ZGram on "Holocaust History versus Dogma" a couple of weeks ago.
Pertaining to that topic, summarized as the common exhortation that all of us confront repeatedly: "What??? You don't believe in the Holocaust?!?" Dr. Fredrick Toben, Director of the Australian-based Revisionist website called Adelaide Institute, sent me a recent radio call-in excerpt - along with this comment:
"Ingrid, this is clearer to me day by day - and was clear to me when listening to John Sack's statement about "believing" in the Holocaust. The other day I was on local talk-back radio ( item will be featured in November newsletter) and again the question: What don't you believe in the Holocaust?"
Some of the content of this call-in pertains to Australian politics and is hard to understand out of context, but the "ambience" around the call, I think, is very typical.
Here's the item:
Jeremy Cordeaux's Adelaide Radio 5DN morning program:
Thursday, 17 September 1998
FREDRICK TOBEN: Your last caller talked about the literacy problems in our schools.
JEREMY CORDEAUX: Yes.
FREDRICK TOBEN: I can concur with that as a relief teacher in the government system, but you can't really blame the teachers because they're merely carrying out the orders, and I wrote a book called The Boston-Curry Party and therein I trace what happened in Victoria during the 80s when ideology took over.
JEREMY CORDEAUX: Well, they seem to be more interested in politics than in teaching.
FREDRICK TOBEN: Indeed, indeed, and this is why it is not fair to pick on the teachers who are really trying to do their best - but their directions come from the top. And of course, now with the Commonwealth Games - the success we're having, it shows that we as a nation are strong in the body and weak in the mind basically because weak in the mind was illustrated when David Oldfield [One Nation Senate candidate] challenged Fischer [deputy Prime Minister and leader of the National Party] and Fischer ran off.
JEREMY CORDEAUX: Well, we're easily led. We are and it's a very dangerous position to be in.
FREDRICK TOBEN: We're taught to be slaves, and this is why we challenge taboo topics such as the Jewish-Nazi holocaust.
JEREMY CORDEAUX: Who's we?
FREDRICK TOBEN: The Adelaide Institute. We're a group of individuals who have been doing this for the past four years and unfortunately people who don't like us call us neo-Nazis, racists, anti-Semites and so on. But what we do is follow topics that the so-called 'court historians' the historians at the university, don't touch - and one of them is the Jewish-Nazi holocaust.
JEREMY CORDEAUX: Tell me what it is that you find hard to believe about the holocaust.
FREDRICK TOBEN: We don't want to believe, that's the point. We want to know and if something is sold as an historical fact, then we should be able to look at documentation, go there physically and say: "Yes, this is possible - it is not".
JEREMY CORDEAUX: But don't you think enough people have looked at the evidence, that there was a holocaust, to be fairly convinced that there was a holocaust?
FREDRICK TOBEN: Nobody denies that there wasn't a holocaust, but the term 'holocaust' itself is so broad now that for example, One Nation, David Oldfield told his members that they should not discuss this topic - and now, this is why I'm ringing, I get a disturbing letter from Hugh Wigg, from the Australia First Party, because what somebody has done is taken material off our Adelaide Institute website and put on it "Vote 1 AFP - Australia First Party". Now we have nothing to do with that. We're not a political organisation, and that's what I wanted your listeners to know. We do not interfere with politics. We have people from all backgrounds - Jews, Christians, Moslems - supporting us. We have atheists, fundamentalists - the whole works. We are not discriminatory in anything - but we do want that intellectual adventure.
JEREMY CORDEAUX: Well, you basically want that freedom of thought which is a perfectly reasonable thing - the availability or the opportunity to discuss openly anything you wish to discuss without being howled down.
FREDRICK TOBEN: And Jeremy, that's what makes us human.
JEREMY CORDEAUX: Yea, and it's also what makes you intelligent.
FREDRICK TOBEN: But once that's taken from us - see, with the Racial Hatred Act, we're before the Human Rights Commission at the moment, and they say our work is racist, when it is not.
JEREMY CORDEAUX: What do you say that is racist?
FREDRICK TOBEN: Well, they say merely questioning - Jeremy Jones of the Executive Council of Australian Jewry is saying he's hurt.
JEREMY CORDEAUX: Well, I know him and he's a very intellectual kind of character and I can't imagine he would be against a discussion.
FREDRICK TOBEN: Yes he is, he is.
JEREMY CORDEAUX: Why?
FREDRICK TOBEN: Because the point is he , we want to thrash out - I said to him, look, tell us where we're wrong. If we're telling lies, if we are offending you, tell me specifically what's going on. He refused to talk to me. He doesn't talk to me. He's like Tim Fischer - he runs away.
JEREMY CORDEAUX: Well, I don't understand that. I think basically in a free society people are open to or should be open to discuss absolutely anything and if something's a ratbag philosophy or ratbag theory, don't try to keep that person quiet. Let that person be heard and be recognised for what he is - a genius or a ratbag.
FREDRICK TOBEN: Jeremy, this is music to my ears what you're saying - because all we're doing is expressing our ideas, our thoughts.
JEREMY CORDEAUX: Well it's common sense.
FREDRICK TOBEN: And if we're offending people because of poor taste, I apologize.
JEREMY CORDEAUX: Well, if we don't have freedom of thought, we are just going through the motions of a free society and I'm for a free and open society where people can discuss and argue points, even if you don't agree with them, basically put them out on a table and let people look at them and regard people as being intelligent enough to sort things out for themselves. Fredrick, I've got to move on. Thank you for the call.
(end of call-in)
Afterwards Jeremy Cordeuax broadcast this disclaimer:
JEREMY CORDEAUX: Just for the record by the way. There are people who will believe there was no holocaust. There are people who believe that the world is flat. There are people who believe that socialism works. There are people who believe that anarchy is desirable. There are people who will believe all sorts of things. But I, like the anarchists who want too shut up Pauline Hanson, I believe everyone should be heard.
Thought for the Day:
"The attempt to silence a man is the greatest honor you can bestow on him. It means that you recognize his superiority to yourself."
(Joseph Sobran)