********* Extremely important "Der Spiegel" interview **********
zgrams at zgrams.zundelsite.org
zgrams at zgrams.zundelsite.org
Tue May 30 17:47:37 EDT 2006
>
>
>
>
>TO ALL OUR FRIENDS WORLD-WIDE:
>
>PLEASE post this interview as prominently as you can! PLEASE
>circulate it as widely as you can!
>
>Seldom have we seen such a breakthrough in our protracted struggle
>over decades to bring historical truth and political sanity to the
>entire world!
>
>Ingrid Rimland, Ed.D.
>
>(wife of political prisoner Ernst Zundel, incarcerated in a German
>prison for his historical research and his forensic findings)
>
>=====
>
>
>
>SPIEGEL ONLINE - May 30, 2006, 12:01 AM
>URL: http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,418660,00.html
>
>SPIEGEL Interview with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
>
>"We Are Determined"
>
>In an interview with SPIEGEL, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
>discusses the Holocaust, the future of the state of Israel, mistakes
>made by the United States in Iraq and Tehran's nuclear conflict with
>the West.
>
>AP
>Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: "By siding with Iran, the
>Europeans would serve their own and our interests."
>
>SPIEGEL: Mr. President, you are a soccer fan and you like to play
>soccer. Will you be sitting in the stadium in Nuremberg on June 11,
>when the Iranian national team plays against Mexico in Germany?
>
>Ahmadinejad: It depends. Naturally, I'll be watching the game in any
>case. I don't know yet whether I'll be at home in front of the
>television set or somewhere else. My decision depends upon a number
>of things.
>
>SPIEGEL: For example?
>
>Ahmadinejad: How much time I have, how the state of various
>relationships are going, whether I feel like it and a number of
>other things.
>
>SPIEGEL: There was great indignation in Germany when it became known
>that you might be coming to the soccer world championship. Did that
>surprise you?
>
>Ahmadinejad: No, that's not important. I didn't even understand how
>that came about. It also had no meaning for me. I don't know what
>all the excitement is about.
>
>SPIEGEL: It concerned your remarks about the Holocaust. It was
>inevitable that the Iranian president's denial of the systematic
>murder of the Jews by the Germans would trigger outrage.
>
>Ahmadinejad: I don't exactly understand the connection.
>
>SPIEGEL: First you make your remarks about the Holocaust. Then comes
>the news that you may travel to Germany -- this causes an uproar. So
>you were surprised after all?
>
>Ahmadinejad: No, not at all, because the network of Zionism is very
>active around the world, in Europe too. So I wasn't surprised. We
>were addressing the German people. We have nothing to do with
>Zionists.
>
>SPIEGEL: Denying the Holocaust is punishable in Germany. Are you
>indifferent when confronted with so much outrage?
>
>Ahmadinejad: I know that DER SPIEGEL is a respected magazine. But I
>don't know whether it is possible for you to publish the truth about
>the Holocaust. Are you permitted to write everything about it?
>
>SPIEGEL: Of course we are entitled to write about the findings of
>the past 60 years' historical research. In our view there is no
>doubt that the Germans -- unfortunately -- bear the guilt for the
>murder of 6 million Jews.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Well, then we have stirred up a very concrete
>discussion. We are posing two very clear questions. The first is:
>Did the Holocaust actually take place? You answer this question in
>the affirmative. So, the second question is: Whose fault was it? The
>answer to that has to be found in Europe and not in Palestine. It is
>perfectly clear: If the Holocaust took place in Europe, one also has
>to find the answer to it in Europe.
>
>On the other hand, if the Holocaust didn't take place, why then did
>this regime of occupation ...
>
>SPIEGEL: ... You mean the state of Israel...
>
>Ahmadinejad: ... come about? Why do the European countries commit
>themselves to defending this regime? Permit me to make one more
>point. We are of the opinion that, if an historical occurrence
>conforms to the truth, this truth will be revealed all the more
>clearly if there is more research into it and more discussion about
>it.
>
>SPIEGEL: That has long since happened in Germany.
>
>Ahmadinejad: We don't want to confirm or deny the Holocaust. We
>oppose every type of crime against any people. But we want to know
>whether this crime actually took place or not. If it did, then those
>who bear the responsibility for it have to be punished, and not the
>Palestinians. Why isn't research into a deed that occurred 60 years
>ago permitted? After all, other historical occurrences, some of
>which lie several thousand years in the past, are open to research,
>and even the governments support this.
>
>SPIEGEL: Mr. President, with all due respect, the Holocaust
>occurred, there were concentration camps, there are dossiers on the
>extermination of the Jews, there has been a great deal of research,
>and there is neither the slightest doubt about the Holocaust nor
>about the fact - we greatly regret this - that the Germans are
>responsible for it. If we may now add one remark: the fate of the
>Palestinians is an entirely different issue, and this brings us into
>the present.
>
>Ahmadinejad: No, no, the roots of the Palestinian conflict must be
>sought in history. The Holocaust and Palestine are directly
>connected with one another. And if the Holocaust actually occurred,
>then you should permit impartial groups from the whole world to
>research this. Why do you restrict the research to a certain group?
>Of course, I don't mean you, but rather the European governments.
>
>SPIEGEL: Are you still saying that the Holocaust is just "a myth?"
>
>Ahmadinejad: I will only accept something as truth if I am actually
>convinced of it.
>
>SPIEGEL: Even though no Western scholars harbor any doubt about the Holocaust?
>
>Ahmadinejad: But there are two opinions on this in Europe. One group
>of scholars or persons, most of them politically motivated, say the
>Holocaust occurred. Then there is the group of scholars who
>represent the opposite position and have therefore been imprisoned
>for the most part. Hence, an impartial group has to come together to
>investigate and to render an opinion on this very important subject,
>because the clarification of this issue will contribute to the
>solution of global problems. Under the pretext of the Holocaust, a
>very strong polarization has taken place in the world and fronts
>have been formed. It would therefore be very good if an
>international and impartial group looked into the matter in order to
>clarify it once and for all. Normally, governments promote and
>support the work of researchers on historical events and do not put
>them in prison.
>
>SPIEGEL: Who is that supposed to be? Which researchers do you mean?
>
>Ahmadinejad: You would know this better than I; you have the list.
>There are people from England, from Germany, France and from
>Australia.
>
>SPIEGEL: You presumably mean, for example, the Englishman David
>Irving, the German-Canadian Ernst Zündel, who is on trial in
>Mannheim, and the Frenchman Georges Theil, all of whom deny the
>Holocaust.
>
>Ahmadinejad: The mere fact that my comments have caused such strong
>protests, although I'm not a European, and also the fact that I have
>been compared with certain persons in German history indicates how
>charged with conflict the atmosphere for research is in your
>country. Here in Iran you needn't worry.
>
>SPIEGEL: Well, we are conducting this historical debate with you for
>a very timely purpose. Are you questioning Israel's right to exist?
>
>Ahmadinejad: Look here, my views are quite clear. We are saying that
>if the Holocaust occurred, then Europe must draw the consequences
>and that it is not Palestine that should pay the price for it. If it
>did not occur, then the Jews have to go back to where they came
>from. I believe that the German people today are also prisoners of
>the Holocaust. Sixty million people died in the Second World War.
>World War II was a gigantic crime. We condemn it all. We are against
>bloodshed, regardless of whether a crime was committed against a
>Muslim or against a Christian or a Jew. But the question is: Why
>among these 60 million victims are only the Jews the center of
>attention?
>
>SPIEGEL: That's just not the case. All peoples mourn the victims
>claimed by the Second World War, Germans and Russians and Poles and
>others as well. Yet, we as Germans cannot absolve ourselves of a
>special guilt, namely for the systematic murder of the Jews. But
>perhaps we should now move on to the next subject.
>
>Ahmadinejad: No, I have a question for you. What kind of a role did
>today's youth play in World War II?
>
>SPIEGEL: None.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Why should they have feelings of guilt toward Zionists?
>Why should the costs of the Zionists be paid out of their pockets?
>If people committed crimes in the past, then they would have to have
>been tried 60 years ago. End of story! Why must the German people be
>humiliated today because a group of people committed crimes in the
>name of the Germans during the course of history?
>
>SPIEGEL: The German people today can't do anything about it. But
>there is a sort of collective shame for those deeds done in the
>German name by our fathers or grandfathers.
>
>Ahmadinejad: How can a person who wasn't even alive at the time be
>held legally responsible?
>
>SPIEGEL: Not legally but morally.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Why is such a burden heaped on the German people? The
>German people of today bear no guilt. Why are the German people not
>permitted the right to defend themselves? Why are the crimes of one
>group emphasized so greatly, instead of highlighting the great
>German cultural heritage? Why should the Germans not have the right
>to express their opinion freely?
>
>SPIEGEL: Mr. President, we are well aware that German history is not
>made up of only the 12 years of the Third Reich. Nevertheless, we
>have to accept that horrible crimes have been committed in the
>German name. We also own up to this, and it is a great achievement
>of the Germans in post-war history that they have grappled
>critically with their past.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Are you also prepared to tell that to the German people?
>
>SPIEGEL: Oh yes, we do that.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Then would you also permit an impartial group to ask
>the German people whether it shares your opinion? No people accepts
>its own humiliation.
>
>SPIEGEL: All questions are allowed in our country. But of course
>there are right-wing radicals in Germany who are not only
>anti-Semitic, but xenophobic as well, and we do indeed consider them
>a threat.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Let me ask you one thing: How much longer can this go
>on? How much longer do you think the German people have to accept
>being taken hostage by the Zionists? When will that end - in 20, 50,
>1,000 years?
>
>SPIEGEL: We can only speak for ourselves. DER SPIEGEL is nobody's
>hostage; SPIEGEL does not deal only with Germany's past and the
>Germans' crimes. We're not Israel's uncritical ally in the Palestian
>conflict. But we want to make one thing very clear: We are critical,
>we are independent, but we won't simply stand by without protest
>when the existential right of the state of Israel, where many
>Holocaust survivors live, is being questioned.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Precisely that is our point. Why should you feel
>obliged to the Zionists? If there really had been a Holocaust,
>Israel ought to be located in Europe, not in Palestine.
>
>SPIEGEL: Do you want to resettle a whole people 60 years after the
>end of the war?
>
>Ahmadinejad: Five million Palestinians have not had a home for 60
>years. It is amazing really: You have been paying reparations for
>the Holocaust for 60 years and will have to keep paying up for
>another 100 years. Why then is the fate of the Palestinians no issue
>here?
>
>SPIEGEL: The Europeans support the Palestinians in many ways. After
>all, we also have an historic responsibility to help bring peace to
>this region finally. But don't you share that responsibility?
>
>Ahmadinejad: Yes, but aggression, occupation and a repetition of the
>Holocaust won't bring peace. What we want is a sustainable peace.
>This means that we have to tackle the root of the problem. I am
>pleased to note that you are honest people and admit that you are
>obliged to support the Zionists.
>
>SPIEGEL: That's not what we said, Mr. President.
>
>Ahmadinejad: You said Israelis.
>
>SPIEGEL: Mr. President, we're talking about the Holocaust because we
>want to talk about the possible nuclear armament of Iran -- which is
>why the West sees you as a threat.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Some groups in the West enjoy calling things or people
>a threat. Of course you're free to make your own judgment.
>
>SPIEGEL: The key question is: Do you want nuclear weapons for your country?
>
>Ahmadinejad: Allow me to encourage a discussion on the following
>question: How long do you think the world can be governed by the
>rhetoric of a handful of Western powers? Whenever they hold
>something against someone, they start spreading propaganda and lies,
>defamation and blackmail. How much longer can that go on?
>
>SPIEGEL: We're here to find out the truth. The head of state of a
>neighboring country, for example, told SPIEGEL: "They are very keen
>on building the bomb." Is that true?
>
>Ahmadinejad: You see, we conduct our discussions with you and the
>European governments on an entirely different, higher level. In our
>view, the legal system whereby a handful of countries force their
>will on the rest of the world is discriminatory and unstable.
>One-hundred and thirty-nine countries, including us, are members of
>the International Atomic Energy Authority (IAEA) in Vienna. Both the
>statutes of IAEA and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty as well as
>all security agreements grant the member countries the right to
>produce nuclear fuel for peaceful purposes. That is the legitimate
>legal right of any people. Beyond this, however, IAEA was also
>established to promote the disarmament of those powers that already
>possessed nuclear weapons. And now look at what's happening today:
>Iran has had an excellent cooperation with IAEA. We have had more
>than 2,000 inspections of our plants, and the inspectors have
>obtained more than 1,000 pages of documentation from us. Their
>cameras are installed in our nuclear centers. IAEA has emphasized in
>all its reports that there are no indications of any irregularities
>in Iran. That is one side of this matter.
>
>SPIEGEL: IAEA doesn't quite share your view of this matter.
>
>Ahmadinejad: But the other side is that there are a number of
>countries that possess both nuclear energy and nuclear weapons. They
>use their atomic weapons to threaten other peoples. And it is these
>powers who say that they are worried about Iran deviating from the
>path of peaceful use of atomic energy. We say that these powers are
>free to monitor us if they are worried. But what these powers say is
>that the Iranians must not complete the nuclear fuel cycle because
>deviation from peaceful use might then be possible. What we say is
>that these countries themselves have long deviated from peaceful
>usage. These powers have no right to talk to us in this manner. This
>order is unjust and unsustainable.
>
>SPIEGEL: But, Mr. President, the key question is: How dangerous will
>this world become if even more countries become nuclear powers -- if
>a country like Iran, whose president makes threats, builds the bomb
>in a crisis-ridden region?
>
>Ahmadinejad: We're fundamentally opposed to the expansion of
>nucleaar-weapons arsenals. This is why we have proposed the
>formation of an unbiased organization and the disarmament of the
>nuclear powers. We don't need any weapons. We're a civilized,
>cultured people, and our history shows that we have never attacked
>another country.
>
>SPIEGEL: Iran doesn't need the bomb that it wants to build?
>
>Ahmadinejad: It's interesting to note that European nations wanted
>to allow the shah's dictatorship the use of nuclear technology. That
>was a dangerous regime. Yet those nations were willing to supply it
>with nuclear technology. Ever since the Islamic Republic has
>existed, however, these powers have been opposed to it. I stress
>once again, we don't need any nuclear weapons.
>
>We stand by our statements because we're honest and act legally.
>We're no fraudsters. We only want to claim our legitimate right.
>Incidentally, I never threatened anyone - that, too, is part of the
>propaganda machine that you've got running against me.
>
>SPIEGEL: If this were so, shouldn't you be making an effort to
>ensure that no one need fear your producing nuclear weapons that you
>might use against Israel, thus possibly unleashing a world war?
>You're sitting on a tinderbox, Mr. President.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Allow me to say two things. No people in the region are
>afraid of us. And no one should instill fear in these peoples. We
>believe that if the United States and these two or three European
>countries did not interfere, the peoples in this region would live
>peacefully together as they did in the thousands of years before. In
>1980, it was also the nations of Europe and the United States that
>encouraged Saddam Hussein to attack us.
>
>Our stance with respect to Palestine is clear. We say: Allow those
>to whom this country belongs to express their opinion. Let Jews,
>Christians and Muslims say what they think. The opponents of this
>proposal prefer war and threaten the region. Why are the United
>States and these two or three European nations opposed to this? I
>believe that those who imprison Holocaust researchers prefer war to
>peace. Our stance is democratic and peaceful.
>
>SPIEGEL: The Palestinians have long gone a step further than you and
>recognize Israel as a fact, while you still wish to erase it from
>the map. The Palestinians are ready to accept a two-state solution
>while you deny Israel its right to existence.
>
>Ahmadinejad: You're wrong. You saw that the Palestinian people
>elected Hamas in free elections. We argue that neither you nor we
>should claim to speak for the Palestian people. The Palestinians
>themselves should say what they want. In Europe it is customary to
>call a referendum on any issue. We should also give the Palestinians
>the opportunity to express their opinion.
>
>SPIEGEL: The Palestinians have the right to their own state, but in
>our view the Israelis naturally have the same right.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Where did the Israelis come from?
>
>SPIEGEL: Well, if we tried to work out where people have come from,
>the Europeans would have to return to east Africa where all humans
>originated.
>
>Ahmadinejad: We're not talking about the Europeans; we're talking
>about the Palestinians. The Palestinians were there, in Palestine.
>Now 5 million of them have become refugees. Don't they have a right
>to live?
>
>SPIEGEL: Mr. President, doesn't there come a time when one should
>accept that the world is the way it is and that we must accept the
>status quo? The war against Iraq has put Iran in a favorable
>position. The United States has suffered a de facto defeat in Iraq.
>Isn't it now time for Iran to become a constructive power of peace
>in the Middle East? Which would mean giving up its nuclear plans and
>inflammatory talk?
>
>Ahmadinejad: I'm wondering why you're adopting and fanatically
>defending the stance of the European politicians. You're a magazine,
>not a government. Saying that we should accept the world as it is
>would mean that the winners of World War II would remain the
>victorious powers for another 1,000 years and that the German people
>would be humiliated for another 1,000 years. Do you think that is
>the correct logic?
>
>SPIEGEL: No, that's not the right logic, nor is it true. The Germans
>have played a modest, but important role in post-war developments.
>They do not feel as though they have been humiliated and dishonored
>since 1945. We are too self-confident for that. But today we want to
>talk about Iran's current mission.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Then we would accept that Palestinians are killed every
>day, that they die in terrorist attacks, and that houses are being
>destroyed. But let me say something about Iraq. We have always
>favored peace and security in the region. For eight years, the
>Western countries provided arms to Saddam in the war against us,
>including chemical weapons, and gave him political support. We were
>against Saddam and suffered severely because of him, so we're happy
>that he has been toppled. But we don't accept a whole country being
>swallowed under the pretext of wanting to topple Saddam. More than
>100,000 Iraqis have lost their lives under the rule of the occupying
>forces. Fortunately, the Germans haven't been involved in this. We
>want security in Iraq.
>
>SPIEGEL: But, Mr. President, who is swallowing Iraq? The United
>States has practically lost this war. By cooperating constructively,
>Iran might help the Americans consider their retreat from the
>country.
>
>Ahmadinejad: This is very interesting: The Americans occupy the
>country, kill people, sell the oil and when they have lost, they
>blame others. We have very close ties to the Iraqi people. Many
>people on both sides of the border are related. We have lived side
>by side for thousands of years. Our holy pilgrimage sites are
>located in Iraq. Just like Iran, Iraq used to be a center of
>civilization.
>
>SPIEGEL: What are you trying to say?
>
>Ahmadinejad: We have always said that we support the popularly
>elected government of Iraq. But in my view the Americans are doing a
>bad job. They have sent us messages several times asking us for help
>and cooperation. They have said that we should talk together about
>Iraq. We publicly accepted this offer, although our people do not
>trust the Americans. But America has responded negatively and
>insulted us. Even now we're contributing to security in Iraq. We
>will hold talks only if the Americans change their behavior.
>
>SPIEGEL: Do you enjoy provoking the Americans and the rest of the
>world now and then?
>
>Ahmadinejad: No, I'm not insulting anyone. The letter that I wrote
>to Mr. Bush was polite.
>
>SPIEGEL: We don't mean insult, but provoke.
>
>Ahmadinejad: No, we feel animosity toward no one. We're concerned
>about the American soldiers who die in Iraq. Why do they have to die
>there? This war makes no sense. Why is there war when there is
>reason as well?
>
>SPIEGEL: Is your letter to the president also a gesture toward the
>Americans that you wish to enter into direct negotiations?
>
>Ahmadinejad: We clearly stated our position in this letter on how we
>view the problems in the world. Some powers have befouled the
>political atmosphere in the world because they consider lies and
>fraud to be legitimate. In our view that is very bad. We believe
>that all people deserve respect. Relationships have to be regulated
>on the basis of justice. When justice reigns, peace reigns. Unjust
>conditions aren't sustainable, even if Ahmadinejad does not
>criticize them.
>
>SPIEGEL: This letter to the American president includes a passage
>about Sept. 11, 2001. The quote: "How could such an operation be
>planned and implemented without the coordination with secret and
>security services or without the far-reaching infiltration of these
>services?" Your statements always include so many innuendos. What is
>that supposed to mean? Did the CIA help Mohammed Atta and the other
>18 terrorists conduct their attacks?
>
>Ahmadinejad: No, that's not what I meant. We think that they should
>just say who is to blame. They should not use Sept. 11 as an excuse
>to launch a military attack against the Middle East. They should
>take those who are responsible for the attacks to court. We're not
>opposed to that; we condemned the attacks. We condemn any attack
>against innocent people.
>
>SPIEGEL: In this letter you also write that Western liberalism has
>failed. What makes you say that?
>
>Ahmadinejad: You see, for example you have a thousand definitions of
>the Palestian problem and you offer all sorts of different
>definitions of democracy in its various forms. It does not make
>sense that a phenomenon depends on the opinions of many individuals
>who are free to interpret the phenomenon as they wish. You can't
>solve the problems of the world that way. We need a new approach. Of
>course we want the free will of the people to reign, but we need
>sustainable principles that enjoy universal acceptance - such as
>justice. Iran and the West agree on this.
>
>SPIEGEL: What role can Europe play in the resolution of the nuclear
>conflict, and what do you expect of Germany?
>
>Ahmadinejad: We have always cultivated good relations with Europe,
>especially with Germany. Our two peoples like each other. We're
>eager to deepen this relationship.
>
>Europe has made three mistakes with respect to our people. The first
>mistake was to support the shah's government. This has left our
>people disappointed and discontent. However, by offering asylum to
>Imam Khomeini, France earned a special position that it lost again
>later. The second mistake was to support Saddam in his war against
>us. The truth is that our people expected Europe to be on our side,
>not against us. The third mistake was Europe's stance on the nuclear
>issue. Europe will be the big loser and will achieve nothing. We
>don't want to see that happen.
>
>SPIEGEL: What will happen now in the conflict between the West and Iran?
>
>Ahmadinejad: We understand the Americans' logic. They suffered
>damage as a result of the victory of the Islamic Revolution. But
>we're puzzled why some European countries are opposed to us. I sent
>out a message on the nuclear issue, asking why the Europeans were
>translating the Americans' words for us. After all, they know that
>our actions are aimed toward peace. By siding with Iran, the
>Europeans would serve their own and our interests. But they will
>suffer only damage if they oppose us. For our people is strong and
>determined.
>
>The Europeans risk losing their position in the Middle East
>entirely, and they are ruining their reputation in other parts of
>the world. The others will think that the Europeans aren't capable
>of solving problems.
>
>SPIEGEL: Mr. President, we thank you for this interview.
>
>Interview conducted by Stefan Aust, Gerhard Spörl and Dieter Bednarz
>in Tehran.
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