********* Extremely important "Der Spiegel" interview **********

zgrams at zgrams.zundelsite.org zgrams at zgrams.zundelsite.org
Tue May 30 17:47:37 EDT 2006


>
>
>
>
>TO ALL OUR FRIENDS WORLD-WIDE: 
>
>PLEASE post this interview as prominently as you can!  PLEASE 
>circulate it as widely as you can! 
>
>Seldom have we seen such a breakthrough in our protracted struggle 
>over decades to bring historical truth and political sanity to the 
>entire world!
>
>Ingrid Rimland, Ed.D.
>
>(wife of political prisoner Ernst Zundel, incarcerated in a German 
>prison for his historical research and his forensic findings)
>
>=====
>
>
>
>SPIEGEL ONLINE - May 30, 2006, 12:01 AM
>URL: http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,418660,00.html
>
>SPIEGEL Interview with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
>
>"We Are Determined"
>
>In an interview with SPIEGEL, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad 
>discusses the Holocaust, the future of the state of Israel, mistakes 
>made by the United States in Iraq and Tehran's nuclear conflict with 
>the West.
>
>AP
>Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: "By siding with Iran, the 
>Europeans would serve their own and our interests."
>
>SPIEGEL: Mr. President, you are a soccer fan and you like to play 
>soccer. Will you be sitting in the stadium in Nuremberg on June 11, 
>when the Iranian national team plays against Mexico in Germany?
>
>Ahmadinejad: It depends. Naturally, I'll be watching the game in any 
>case. I don't know yet whether I'll be at home in front of the 
>television set or somewhere else. My decision depends upon a number 
>of things.
>
>SPIEGEL: For example?
>
>Ahmadinejad: How much time I have, how the state of various 
>relationships are going, whether I feel like it and a number of 
>other things.
>
>SPIEGEL: There was great indignation in Germany when it became known 
>that you might be coming to the soccer world championship. Did that 
>surprise you?
>
>Ahmadinejad: No, that's not important. I didn't even understand how 
>that came about. It also had no meaning for me. I don't know what 
>all the excitement is about.
>
>SPIEGEL: It concerned your remarks about the Holocaust. It was 
>inevitable that the Iranian president's denial of the systematic 
>murder of the Jews by the Germans would trigger outrage.
>
>Ahmadinejad: I don't exactly understand the connection.
>
>SPIEGEL: First you make your remarks about the Holocaust. Then comes 
>the news that you may travel to Germany -- this causes an uproar. So 
>you were surprised after all?
>
>Ahmadinejad: No, not at all, because the network of Zionism is very 
>active around the world, in Europe too. So I wasn't surprised. We 
>were addressing the German people. We have nothing to do with 
>Zionists.
>
>SPIEGEL: Denying the Holocaust is punishable in Germany. Are you 
>indifferent when confronted with so much outrage?
>
>Ahmadinejad: I know that DER SPIEGEL is a respected magazine. But I 
>don't know whether it is possible for you to publish the truth about 
>the Holocaust. Are you permitted to write everything about it?
>
>SPIEGEL: Of course we are entitled to write about the findings of 
>the past 60 years' historical research. In our view there is no 
>doubt that the Germans -- unfortunately -- bear the guilt for the 
>murder of 6 million Jews.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Well, then we have stirred up a very concrete 
>discussion. We are posing two very clear questions. The first is: 
>Did the Holocaust actually take place? You answer this question in 
>the affirmative. So, the second question is: Whose fault was it? The 
>answer to that has to be found in Europe and not in Palestine. It is 
>perfectly clear: If the Holocaust took place in Europe, one also has 
>to find the answer to it in Europe.
>
>On the other hand, if the Holocaust didn't take place, why then did 
>this regime of occupation ...
>
>SPIEGEL: ... You mean the state of Israel...
>
>Ahmadinejad: ... come about? Why do the European countries commit 
>themselves to defending this regime? Permit me to make one more 
>point. We are of the opinion that, if an historical occurrence 
>conforms to the truth, this truth will be revealed all the more 
>clearly if there is more research into it and more discussion about 
>it.
>
>SPIEGEL: That has long since happened in Germany.
>
>Ahmadinejad: We don't want to confirm or deny the Holocaust. We 
>oppose every type of crime against any people. But we want to know 
>whether this crime actually took place or not. If it did, then those 
>who bear the responsibility for it have to be punished, and not the 
>Palestinians. Why isn't research into a deed that occurred 60 years 
>ago permitted? After all, other historical occurrences, some of 
>which lie several thousand years in the past, are open to research, 
>and even the governments support this.
>
>SPIEGEL: Mr. President, with all due respect, the Holocaust 
>occurred, there were concentration camps, there are dossiers on the 
>extermination of the Jews, there has been a great deal of research, 
>and there is neither the slightest doubt about the Holocaust nor 
>about the fact - we greatly regret this - that the Germans are 
>responsible for it. If we may now add one remark: the fate of the 
>Palestinians is an entirely different issue, and this brings us into 
>the present.
>
>Ahmadinejad: No, no, the roots of the Palestinian conflict must be 
>sought in history. The Holocaust and Palestine are directly 
>connected with one another. And if the Holocaust actually occurred, 
>then you should permit impartial groups from the whole world to 
>research this. Why do you restrict the research to a certain group? 
>Of course, I don't mean you, but rather the European governments.
>
>SPIEGEL: Are you still saying that the Holocaust is just "a myth?"
>
>Ahmadinejad: I will only accept something as truth if I am actually 
>convinced of it.
>
>SPIEGEL: Even though no Western scholars harbor any doubt about the Holocaust?
>
>Ahmadinejad: But there are two opinions on this in Europe. One group 
>of scholars or persons, most of them politically motivated, say the 
>Holocaust occurred. Then there is the group of scholars who 
>represent the opposite position and have therefore been imprisoned 
>for the most part. Hence, an impartial group has to come together to 
>investigate and to render an opinion on this very important subject, 
>because the clarification of this issue will contribute to the 
>solution of global problems. Under the pretext of the Holocaust, a 
>very strong polarization has taken place in the world and fronts 
>have been formed. It would therefore be very good if an 
>international and impartial group looked into the matter in order to 
>clarify it once and for all. Normally, governments promote and 
>support the work of researchers on historical events and do not put 
>them in prison.
>
>SPIEGEL: Who is that supposed to be? Which researchers do you mean?
>
>Ahmadinejad: You would know this better than I; you have the list. 
>There are people from England, from Germany, France and from 
>Australia.
>
>SPIEGEL: You presumably mean, for example, the Englishman David 
>Irving, the German-Canadian Ernst Zündel, who is on trial in 
>Mannheim, and the Frenchman Georges Theil, all of whom deny the 
>Holocaust.
>
>Ahmadinejad: The mere fact that my comments have caused such strong 
>protests, although I'm not a European, and also the fact that I have 
>been compared with certain persons in German history indicates how 
>charged with conflict the atmosphere for research is in your 
>country. Here in Iran you needn't worry.
>
>SPIEGEL: Well, we are conducting this historical debate with you for 
>a very timely purpose. Are you questioning Israel's right to exist?
>
>Ahmadinejad: Look here, my views are quite clear. We are saying that 
>if the Holocaust occurred, then Europe must draw the consequences 
>and that it is not Palestine that should pay the price for it. If it 
>did not occur, then the Jews have to go back to where they came 
>from. I believe that the German people today are also prisoners of 
>the Holocaust. Sixty million people died in the Second World War. 
>World War II was a gigantic crime. We condemn it all. We are against 
>bloodshed, regardless of whether a crime was committed against a 
>Muslim or against a Christian or a Jew. But the question is: Why 
>among these 60 million victims are only the Jews the center of 
>attention?
>
>SPIEGEL: That's just not the case. All peoples mourn the victims 
>claimed by the Second World War, Germans and Russians and Poles and 
>others as well. Yet, we as Germans cannot absolve ourselves of a 
>special guilt, namely for the systematic murder of the Jews. But 
>perhaps we should now move on to the next subject.
>
>Ahmadinejad: No, I have a question for you. What kind of a role did 
>today's youth play in World War II?
>
>SPIEGEL: None.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Why should they have feelings of guilt toward Zionists? 
>Why should the costs of the Zionists be paid out of their pockets? 
>If people committed crimes in the past, then they would have to have 
>been tried 60 years ago. End of story! Why must the German people be 
>humiliated today because a group of people committed crimes in the 
>name of the Germans during the course of history?
>
>SPIEGEL: The German people today can't do anything about it. But 
>there is a sort of collective shame for those deeds done in the 
>German name by our fathers or grandfathers.
>
>Ahmadinejad: How can a person who wasn't even alive at the time be 
>held legally responsible?
>
>SPIEGEL: Not legally but morally.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Why is such a burden heaped on the German people? The 
>German people of today bear no guilt. Why are the German people not 
>permitted the right to defend themselves? Why are the crimes of one 
>group emphasized so greatly, instead of highlighting the great 
>German cultural heritage? Why should the Germans not have the right 
>to express their opinion freely?
>
>SPIEGEL: Mr. President, we are well aware that German history is not 
>made up of only the 12 years of the Third Reich. Nevertheless, we 
>have to accept that horrible crimes have been committed in the 
>German name. We also own up to this, and it is a great achievement 
>of the Germans in post-war history that they have grappled 
>critically with their past.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Are you also prepared to tell that to the German people?
>
>SPIEGEL: Oh yes, we do that.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Then would you also permit an impartial group to ask 
>the German people whether it shares your opinion? No people accepts 
>its own humiliation.
>
>SPIEGEL: All questions are allowed in our country. But of course 
>there are right-wing radicals in Germany who are not only 
>anti-Semitic, but xenophobic as well, and we do indeed consider them 
>a threat.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Let me ask you one thing: How much longer can this go 
>on? How much longer do you think the German people have to accept 
>being taken hostage by the Zionists? When will that end - in 20, 50, 
>1,000 years?
>
>SPIEGEL: We can only speak for ourselves. DER SPIEGEL is nobody's 
>hostage; SPIEGEL does not deal only with Germany's past and the 
>Germans' crimes. We're not Israel's uncritical ally in the Palestian 
>conflict. But we want to make one thing very clear: We are critical, 
>we are independent, but we won't simply stand by without protest 
>when the existential right of the state of Israel, where many 
>Holocaust survivors live, is being questioned.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Precisely that is our point. Why should you feel 
>obliged to the Zionists? If there really had been a Holocaust, 
>Israel ought to be located in Europe, not in Palestine.
>
>SPIEGEL: Do you want to resettle a whole people 60 years after the 
>end of the war?
>
>Ahmadinejad: Five million Palestinians have not had a home for 60 
>years. It is amazing really: You have been paying reparations for 
>the Holocaust for 60 years and will have to keep paying up for 
>another 100 years. Why then is the fate of the Palestinians no issue 
>here?
>
>SPIEGEL: The Europeans support the Palestinians in many ways. After 
>all, we also have an historic responsibility to help bring peace to 
>this region finally. But don't you share that responsibility?
>
>Ahmadinejad: Yes, but aggression, occupation and a repetition of the 
>Holocaust won't bring peace. What we want is a sustainable peace. 
>This means that we have to tackle the root of the problem. I am 
>pleased to note that you are honest people and admit that you are 
>obliged to support the Zionists.
>
>SPIEGEL: That's not what we said, Mr. President.
>
>Ahmadinejad: You said Israelis.
>
>SPIEGEL: Mr. President, we're talking about the Holocaust because we 
>want to talk about the possible nuclear armament of Iran -- which is 
>why the West sees you as a threat.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Some groups in the West enjoy calling things or people 
>a threat. Of course you're free to make your own judgment.
>
>SPIEGEL: The key question is: Do you want nuclear weapons for your country?
>
>Ahmadinejad: Allow me to encourage a discussion on the following 
>question: How long do you think the world can be governed by the 
>rhetoric of a handful of Western powers? Whenever they hold 
>something against someone, they start spreading propaganda and lies, 
>defamation and blackmail. How much longer can that go on?
>
>SPIEGEL: We're here to find out the truth. The head of state of a 
>neighboring country, for example, told SPIEGEL: "They are very keen 
>on building the bomb." Is that true?
>
>Ahmadinejad: You see, we conduct our discussions with you and the 
>European governments on an entirely different, higher level. In our 
>view, the legal system whereby a handful of countries force their 
>will on the rest of the world is discriminatory and unstable. 
>One-hundred and thirty-nine countries, including us, are members of 
>the International Atomic Energy Authority (IAEA) in Vienna. Both the 
>statutes of IAEA and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty as well as 
>all security agreements grant the member countries the right to 
>produce nuclear fuel for peaceful purposes. That is the legitimate 
>legal right of any people. Beyond this, however, IAEA was also 
>established to promote the disarmament of those powers that already 
>possessed nuclear weapons. And now look at what's happening today: 
>Iran has had an excellent cooperation with IAEA. We have had more 
>than 2,000 inspections of our plants, and the inspectors have 
>obtained more than 1,000 pages of documentation from us. Their 
>cameras are installed in our nuclear centers. IAEA has emphasized in 
>all its reports that there are no indications of any irregularities 
>in Iran. That is one side of this matter.
>
>SPIEGEL: IAEA doesn't quite share your view of this matter.
>
>Ahmadinejad: But the other side is that there are a number of 
>countries that possess both nuclear energy and nuclear weapons. They 
>use their atomic weapons to threaten other peoples. And it is these 
>powers who say that they are worried about Iran deviating from the 
>path of peaceful use of atomic energy. We say that these powers are 
>free to monitor us if they are worried. But what these powers say is 
>that the Iranians must not complete the nuclear fuel cycle because 
>deviation from peaceful use might then be possible. What we say is 
>that these countries themselves have long deviated from peaceful 
>usage. These powers have no right to talk to us in this manner. This 
>order is unjust and unsustainable.
>
>SPIEGEL: But, Mr. President, the key question is: How dangerous will 
>this world become if even more countries become nuclear powers -- if 
>a country like Iran, whose president makes threats, builds the bomb 
>in a crisis-ridden region?
>
>Ahmadinejad: We're fundamentally opposed to the expansion of 
>nucleaar-weapons arsenals. This is why we have proposed the 
>formation of an unbiased organization and the disarmament of the 
>nuclear powers. We don't need any weapons. We're a civilized, 
>cultured people, and our history shows that we have never attacked 
>another country.
>
>SPIEGEL: Iran doesn't need the bomb that it wants to build?
>
>Ahmadinejad: It's interesting to note that European nations wanted 
>to allow the shah's dictatorship the use of nuclear technology. That 
>was a dangerous regime. Yet those nations were willing to supply it 
>with nuclear technology. Ever since the Islamic Republic has 
>existed, however, these powers have been opposed to it. I stress 
>once again, we don't need any nuclear weapons.
>
>We stand by our statements because we're honest and act legally. 
>We're no fraudsters. We only want to claim our legitimate right. 
>Incidentally, I never threatened anyone - that, too, is part of the 
>propaganda machine that you've got running against me.
>
>SPIEGEL: If this were so, shouldn't you be making an effort to 
>ensure that no one need fear your producing nuclear weapons that you 
>might use against Israel, thus possibly unleashing a world war? 
>You're sitting on a tinderbox, Mr. President.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Allow me to say two things. No people in the region are 
>afraid of us. And no one should instill fear in these peoples. We 
>believe that if the United States and these two or three European 
>countries did not interfere, the peoples in this region would live 
>peacefully together as they did in the thousands of years before. In 
>1980, it was also the nations of Europe and the United States that 
>encouraged Saddam Hussein to attack us.
>
>Our stance with respect to Palestine is clear. We say: Allow those 
>to whom this country belongs to express their opinion. Let Jews, 
>Christians and Muslims say what they think. The opponents of this 
>proposal prefer war and threaten the region. Why are the United 
>States and these two or three European nations opposed to this? I 
>believe that those who imprison Holocaust researchers prefer war to 
>peace. Our stance is democratic and peaceful.
>
>SPIEGEL: The Palestinians have long gone a step further than you and 
>recognize Israel as a fact, while you still wish to erase it from 
>the map. The Palestinians are ready to accept a two-state solution 
>while you deny Israel its right to existence.
>
>Ahmadinejad: You're wrong. You saw that the Palestinian people 
>elected Hamas in free elections. We argue that neither you nor we 
>should claim to speak for the Palestian people. The Palestinians 
>themselves should say what they want. In Europe it is customary to 
>call a referendum on any issue. We should also give the Palestinians 
>the opportunity to express their opinion.
>
>SPIEGEL: The Palestinians have the right to their own state, but in 
>our view the Israelis naturally have the same right.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Where did the Israelis come from?
>
>SPIEGEL: Well, if we tried to work out where people have come from, 
>the Europeans would have to return to east Africa where all humans 
>originated.
>
>Ahmadinejad: We're not talking about the Europeans; we're talking 
>about the Palestinians. The Palestinians were there, in Palestine. 
>Now 5 million of them have become refugees. Don't they have a right 
>to live?
>
>SPIEGEL: Mr. President, doesn't there come a time when one should 
>accept that the world is the way it is and that we must accept the 
>status quo? The war against Iraq has put Iran in a favorable 
>position. The United States has suffered a de facto defeat in Iraq. 
>Isn't it now time for Iran to become a constructive power of peace 
>in the Middle East? Which would mean giving up its nuclear plans and 
>inflammatory talk?
>
>Ahmadinejad: I'm wondering why you're adopting and fanatically 
>defending the stance of the European politicians. You're a magazine, 
>not a government. Saying that we should accept the world as it is 
>would mean that the winners of World War II would remain the 
>victorious powers for another 1,000 years and that the German people 
>would be humiliated for another 1,000 years. Do you think that is 
>the correct logic?
>
>SPIEGEL: No, that's not the right logic, nor is it true. The Germans 
>have played a modest, but important role in post-war developments. 
>They do not feel as though they have been humiliated and dishonored 
>since 1945. We are too self-confident for that. But today we want to 
>talk about Iran's current mission.
>
>Ahmadinejad: Then we would accept that Palestinians are killed every 
>day, that they die in terrorist attacks, and that houses are being 
>destroyed. But let me say something about Iraq. We have always 
>favored peace and security in the region. For eight years, the 
>Western countries provided arms to Saddam in the war against us, 
>including chemical weapons, and gave him political support. We were 
>against Saddam and suffered severely because of him, so we're happy 
>that he has been toppled. But we don't accept a whole country being 
>swallowed under the pretext of wanting to topple Saddam. More than 
>100,000 Iraqis have lost their lives under the rule of the occupying 
>forces. Fortunately, the Germans haven't been involved in this. We 
>want security in Iraq.
>
>SPIEGEL: But, Mr. President, who is swallowing Iraq? The United 
>States has practically lost this war. By cooperating constructively, 
>Iran might help the Americans consider their retreat from the 
>country.
>
>Ahmadinejad: This is very interesting: The Americans occupy the 
>country, kill people, sell the oil and when they have lost, they 
>blame others. We have very close ties to the Iraqi people. Many 
>people on both sides of the border are related. We have lived side 
>by side for thousands of years. Our holy pilgrimage sites are 
>located in Iraq. Just like Iran, Iraq used to be a center of 
>civilization.
>
>SPIEGEL: What are you trying to say?
>
>Ahmadinejad: We have always said that we support the popularly 
>elected government of Iraq. But in my view the Americans are doing a 
>bad job. They have sent us messages several times asking us for help 
>and cooperation. They have said that we should talk together about 
>Iraq. We publicly accepted this offer, although our people do not 
>trust the Americans. But America has responded negatively and 
>insulted us. Even now we're contributing to security in Iraq. We 
>will hold talks only if the Americans change their behavior.
>
>SPIEGEL: Do you enjoy provoking the Americans and the rest of the 
>world now and then?
>
>Ahmadinejad: No, I'm not insulting anyone. The letter that I wrote 
>to Mr. Bush was polite.
>
>SPIEGEL: We don't mean insult, but provoke.
>
>Ahmadinejad: No, we feel animosity toward no one. We're concerned 
>about the American soldiers who die in Iraq. Why do they have to die 
>there? This war makes no sense. Why is there war when there is 
>reason as well?
>
>SPIEGEL: Is your letter to the president also a gesture toward the 
>Americans that you wish to enter into direct negotiations?
>
>Ahmadinejad: We clearly stated our position in this letter on how we 
>view the problems in the world. Some powers have befouled the 
>political atmosphere in the world because they consider lies and 
>fraud to be legitimate. In our view that is very bad. We believe 
>that all people deserve respect. Relationships have to be regulated 
>on the basis of justice. When justice reigns, peace reigns. Unjust 
>conditions aren't sustainable, even if Ahmadinejad does not 
>criticize them.
>
>SPIEGEL: This letter to the American president includes a passage 
>about Sept. 11, 2001. The quote: "How could such an operation be 
>planned and implemented without the coordination with secret and 
>security services or without the far-reaching infiltration of these 
>services?" Your statements always include so many innuendos. What is 
>that supposed to mean? Did the CIA help Mohammed Atta and the other 
>18 terrorists conduct their attacks?
>
>Ahmadinejad: No, that's not what I meant. We think that they should 
>just say who is to blame. They should not use Sept. 11 as an excuse 
>to launch a military attack against the Middle East. They should 
>take those who are responsible for the attacks to court. We're not 
>opposed to that; we condemned the attacks. We condemn any attack 
>against innocent people.
>
>SPIEGEL: In this letter you also write that Western liberalism has 
>failed. What makes you say that?
>
>Ahmadinejad: You see, for example you have a thousand definitions of 
>the Palestian problem and you offer all sorts of different 
>definitions of democracy in its various forms. It does not make 
>sense that a phenomenon depends on the opinions of many individuals 
>who are free to interpret the phenomenon as they wish. You can't 
>solve the problems of the world that way. We need a new approach. Of 
>course we want the free will of the people to reign, but we need 
>sustainable principles that enjoy universal acceptance - such as 
>justice. Iran and the West agree on this.
>
>SPIEGEL: What role can Europe play in the resolution of the nuclear 
>conflict, and what do you expect of Germany?
>
>Ahmadinejad: We have always cultivated good relations with Europe, 
>especially with Germany. Our two peoples like each other. We're 
>eager to deepen this relationship.
>
>Europe has made three mistakes with respect to our people. The first 
>mistake was to support the shah's government. This has left our 
>people disappointed and discontent. However, by offering asylum to 
>Imam Khomeini, France earned a special position that it lost again 
>later. The second mistake was to support Saddam in his war against 
>us. The truth is that our people expected Europe to be on our side, 
>not against us. The third mistake was Europe's stance on the nuclear 
>issue. Europe will be the big loser and will achieve nothing. We 
>don't want to see that happen.
>
>SPIEGEL: What will happen now in the conflict between the West and Iran?
>
>Ahmadinejad: We understand the Americans' logic. They suffered 
>damage as a result of the victory of the Islamic Revolution. But 
>we're puzzled why some European countries are opposed to us. I sent 
>out a message on the nuclear issue, asking why the Europeans were 
>translating the Americans' words for us. After all, they know that 
>our actions are aimed toward peace. By siding with Iran, the 
>Europeans would serve their own and our interests. But they will 
>suffer only damage if they oppose us. For our people is strong and 
>determined.
>
>The Europeans risk losing their position in the Middle East 
>entirely, and they are ruining their reputation in other parts of 
>the world. The others will think that the Europeans aren't capable 
>of solving problems.
>
>SPIEGEL: Mr. President, we thank you for this interview.
>
>Interview conducted by Stefan Aust, Gerhard Spörl and Dieter Bednarz 
>in Tehran.
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