*** Zundel's Persecution: By Order of the Jews" ***

[zgrams at zgrams.zundelsite.org]

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Zundel's Persecution: By Order of the Jews, part 1 an interview with 
Mark Weber by Kevin Alfred Strom

American Dissident Voices Broadcast of March 5, 2005

Welcome to American Dissident Voices. I'm Kevin Alfred Strom.

THERE ARE MANY STRANDS that make up the knot of tyranny which 
increasingly binds the minds of men. But none are more obvious -- and 
none are more odious -- than the cords that bind a man who will, in 
my opinion, one day be regarded as one of the heroes of this age, Mr. 
Ernst Zundel, late of Pigeon Forge, Tennessee and now of Mannheim 
prison in Germany. Mr. Zundel was just shipped in chains to Germany 
after the most shameful imaginable quasi-legal terrorism and sham 
proceedings by the governments of the United States and Canada. The 
Star Chamber has returned to North America. Mr. Zundel's "crime" is 
that of publicly doubting what Jews say about World War II -- nothing 
more. All else is pretext.

The "missed immigration hearing" was the Bush-neocon administration's 
pretext to kidnap him and ship him from his home and hearth and wife 
into Canada, where he was held in solitary confinement for two years 
without charge and subjected to a secret trial under a "judge" who 
once headed the secret police agency which knowingly put him in 
mortal danger, probably hoping to kill him on orders of its Jewish 
masters.

So now the Alice-in-Wonderland "ruling" has been issued, and the 
innocent writer and thinker Ernst Zundel is in yet another prison, 
now charged in Germany with doubting the extremely doubtful but 
legally-protected story of the "Holocaust." So now the focus shifts 
to Europe, where awareness of Jewish power is growing and yet also 
where free speech is not a right and doubting the Jewish version of 
World War II history is a crime.

To discuss this important event we have as our guest today Mr.

Mark Weber, Director of the Institute for Historical Review. Mr.

Weber is not only an historian, but he has served as the Zundel 
family's American spokesman, giving many media interviews, organizing 
protests and speaking events in the cause of freeing this innocent 
man. Welcome to the program, Mark.

Mark Weber: Thank you very much, Kevin. It's a pleasure to be on again.

KAS: Can you give us a brief synopsis of the events beginning with 
the judge's "ruling" in Canada a few days ago?

MW: Well, the last several weeks have been dramatic. It was on the 
24th or 25th that Judge Blais handed down his long-awaited decision 
on the accusation that Ernst Zundel is a "threat to national 
security" -- which is fantastic, really. Ernst Zundel has been held 
for two years in solitary confinement in Canadian detention on the 
charge that he's a "threat to national security." Just about every 
neutral observer of the scene rejects that as an empty pretext. It's 
amazing that in the last several days even a number of journalists on 
national television have stressed, admitted, or acknowledged, over 
and over, that this charge is really preposterous.

In any case, Judge Blais handed down his ruling and declared that 
Ernst Zundel is a "threat to national security." Now he did so on the 
basis of evidence that no one can see. It seems to be based entirely 
on who Ernst Zundel has met with and talked with over the past 
several years, and he alleges that Ernst Zundel is a "central figure" 
in a sinister network of right-wingers, nationalists, White 
supremacists, and so forth. But no actual evidence of any wrongdoing 
or any real threat was cited by the judge. And it only underscored 
the emptiness of the pretext under which Ernst Zundel has been held.

Very shortly after Judge Blais issued this ruling, Ernst Zundel was 
informed that he would be deported to Germany. He's a German 
national, and although he had been living in Canada for more than 40 
years, for the last several years -- until he was incarcerated in 
Canada -- he had been living in Tennessee with his wife. On the 
second of March, Ernst Zundel was packed up, put on an airplane, and 
sent to Germany. And as we speak he's now being held in a prison in 
Mannheim, Germany, and he has been charged with violating that 
country's strange law which makes it a crime to "deny the Holocaust," 
that is, to dispute the official version of the fate of Europe's Jews 
during World War II.

It's unclear what will happen next, when there will be a trial, and so forth.

One of the amazing facets of this whole thing is that before he was 
deported from the United States two years ago, Ernst Zundel had been 
living quietly in Tennessee with his wife, Ingrid Rimland. He's now 
become far better known -- and his whole case has become far better 
known -- as a result of his arrest in the United States, his 
deportation to Canada first and now to Germany. The case has now 
become an international affair. Ernst Zundel and his ordeal are now 
much better known that ever they were before he was taken away in 
February 2003.

KAS: Indeed. How is Mrs. Zundel -- Ingrid Rimland Zundel -- taking this?

MW: Well, I spoke with her just the other day. It's a big blow, of 
course. She's afraid she'll never see her husband again.

As it happens, on the third of February, she and I spoke at a meeting 
here in southern California organized by the IHR. This was the first 
address that Ingrid had given to any audience about her husband's 
ordeal, about the background of the whole thing, since he was taken 
away from her in February of 2003. She talked about how, right after 
he was arrested, it was a really great blow. She was very subdued and 
it was very difficult. Then, of course, life picks up and a new 
pattern emerges. And she has, with great fortitude, borne this 
tremendous burden that has fallen on her shoulders, organizing this 
campaign for his release during the past couple of years.

And when I spoke to her again just a few days ago, she was of course 
very subdued again. It's a terrible blow, and she's afraid she'll 
never see him again. She runs the risk, of course, even visiting him 
in Germany, that she might be arrested herself and put in prison, 
because the laws in Germany are very bizarre in this respect.

KAS: What a sad, sad situation for a married couple to be in.

MW: It's a very very sad situation. There's a number of aspects of 
this whole case that are really remarkable. Ernst Zundel was arrested 
and taken away in Tennessee on the pretext that he had missed an 
immigration hearing. He was held in Canada for two years in solitary 
confinement on the empty pretext that he's a "threat to national 
security." And now he's being held in Germany on the charge that he 
"denies the Holocaust." In all three cases, the charges are empty or 
they are political in nature or both.

But, no matter the character of the individual circumstances in each 
case, they all point up the tremendous symbolic role that Ernst 
Zundel has taken on.

It's important to stress that Ernst Zundel has been targeted in this 
way not because of anything he's actually done. I mean, the charge 
that he's a "threat to national security" is really preposterous on 
its face, as even the leading newspaper in Canada, the Globe and 
Mail, has on two occasions editorially affirmed. What's significant 
is that Ernst Zundel fought a tremendous battle in the courts in the 
1980s over the Holocaust issue. He enormously publicized the entire 
Holocaust Revisionist case of skepticism about the official Holocaust 
story. And I can attest personally -- I've seen this myself -- that 
the Canadian Jewish groups and the American Jewish groups absolutely 
hate this man and are determined to put him away and shut him up any 
way they can.

KAS: Yes; when you strip away all the legal pretexts and the sham 
moralizing it comes to down to a case of Jewish vengeance.

MW: A popular public affairs program in Canada called The Michael 
Coren Show has dealt -- three or four times now in the last few weeks 
-- with the Zundel case. And there's been unanimous agreement -- even 
by the host of the show, who's Jewish, and the others who've been on 
the show -- that Ernst Zundel is not a threat to national security. 
But one guest in particular was emphatic in saying that Zundel is in 
prison because Jewish groups want him in prison. This is a point 
which very few people are willing to say openly, but which must be 
said.

If Ernst Zundel is not really a threat to national security, then an 
immense injustice has been done to this man. He's been held for two 
years, then, unjustly. He's a victim -- he's not a perpetrator -- 
he's a victim of injustice. And the question

arises: Who are the perpetrators? -- and how can they be held 
accountable for the injustice against him and against others like him?

KAS: Indeed. We must not forget that.

Is anyone able to speak with Mr. Zundel?

MW: Well, I don't know now what the situation is, how freely he is 
able to speak. When he was in solitary confinement in Canada, he was 
permitted to make collect telephone calls out, as long as the 
authorities were notified in advance to whom he was calling.

As your listeners may know from previous broadcasts, he was held 
under draconian conditions. The light was never turned off in his 
cell; he was not permitted to have even a pen, he had to write with 
pencils; he was not allowed to have a desk -- very draconian. I don't 
know now what the situation is, but it's hard to imagine that 
circumstances that he will be held under in Germany will be any worse 
than they were in Canada.

At least now he has the right to confront the evidence against him, 
whatever it is, and to deal with it in a kind of normal way.

When someone is held in Canada or other countries under the pretext 
of "national security," all the normal rules are thrown out the 
window, and, as I mentioned, in Zundel's case in Canada he was not 
permitted to confront or refute or respond to the supposed evidence 
that was presented against him.

KAS: So this is not going to be a secret trial, as was the one in Canada.

MW: Right. One of the remarkable aspects of the case now in Germany 
is that Ernst Zundel has been charged with "Holocaust denial" because 
of what's been posted on the so-called Zundelsite. ( 
<http://www.zundelsite.org/>http://www.zundelsite.org/ which is 
linked to the Institute for Historical Review site, 
<http://www.ihr.org/>http://www.ihr.org/ ) The Zundelsite contains 
quite a lot of material that is called "Holocaust denial." But it's 
important to remember a couple of things. First, the Web site, 
despite the name, is not really Ernst Zundel's Web site. And that's 
not just a quibble. His wife runs the Web site. His wife controls the 
Web site. Not only does Ernst Zundel not have access to it -- he 
doesn't even know the password.

But the most obvious evidence that the site is not run by Ernst 
Zundel is the fact that it's been running for two years while he's 
been in solitary confinement in Canada.

Second, the Web site is based not in Germany or even in Canada, but 
in the United States. And to punish a person for what is posted on a 
Web site in another country -- where that material is legal -- opens 
up a very dangerous door for abuse. Let us consider for a moment the 
implications if that becomes the general principle. It could mean, 
for example, that a Chinese person living in the United States who 
posts something on an American Web site denouncing Communist rule in 
China, could be punished and even extradited from the United States 
to China and punished there for doing something that's quite legal in 
this country but illegal in China. As everyone knows, there are laws 
all around the world that we in America don't agree with -- in fact, 
there are laws in America that Americans fifty years ago wouldn't 
have agreed with. So for a person to make a statement on a Web site 
in a country where it's legal, and then have that person punished in 
another country, is a very dangerous thing indeed.

KAS: There are some of your writings up on the Zundelsite. And I know 
that there are some of mine there as well. Haven't some of your 
writings there been the subject of legal proceedings?

MW: Right. Some essays that I've written, which are posted on the IHR 
Web site, are also posted on the Zundelsite. And they've been, under 
German law, "indexed." That means they're not exactly banned, but 
there are certain restrictions on them. They're put in a category in 
Germany similar to the category under which pornography is placed.

And Jewish groups in Canada tried, after they were unsuccessful in 
"getting" Zundel during the 1980s, to shut him up and punish him for 
what appeared on the Zundelsite during the 1990s. This was done 
before a quasi-legal body called the "Human Rights Tribunal" and on 
two occasions I testified before this tribunal on behalf of Ernst 
Zundel. And part of the reason I testified was, as you mentioned, 
that some of the writings that were objected to were written by me.

But the incredible thing is that these writings, because of the court 
cases that Ernst Zundel fought in the 1980s, were legal in printed 
form in Canada -- and are now legal in printed form in Canada -- but 
Jewish organizations were trying to punish or shut up Ernst Zundel 
for these same writings when they appeared on the Internet on the 
Zundelsite -- which, as I said, is run by his wife and not by him and 
is based in the United States.

KAS: It sounds like the court of the Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland.

MW: On the fourth of February we held a demonstration outside the 
Canadian Consulate in downtown Los Angeles, and there were maybe 50 
Los Angeles policemen in the middle of the street separating our 
demonstration from the very raucous demonstration by the Jewish 
Defense League on the other side of the street. I can say that one of 
the most gratifying aspects of that demonstration was the support we 
got from people who represent a whole range of political views. Ernst 
Zundel has become a symbol -- a lightning rod -- a rallying point -- 
for people concerned about the issue of freedom of speech. And it's 
very gratifying to see the kind of support that he's gotten on this 
matter. By the same token, it really points up the hypocrisy of these 
so-called defenders of free speech -- that they have not supported 
Ernst Zundel in this because they do not want to be associated with a 
person who holds these views on the Second World War and so forth. 
But there's been a wide range of support -- and growing support for 
Ernst Zundel the longer he was held.

The demonstration we held on the fourth of February was coordinated 
with demonstrations in other American cities on that same day or the 
next day, and also in Tokyo, in Stockholm, and in Canada as well. And 
I just received a report that today, in Mannheim, Germany, there were 
forty to fifty people demonstrating and distributing leaflets 
supporting Ernst Zundel. Now it's hard to say what's going to happen, 
but there's every prospect that the Zundel case will become an 
important case in Germany as well.

KAS: Excellent. I'm glad to hear that.

Who has failed us in this regard? Who has failed us in standing up 
for Ernst Zundel's freedom of speech? How about Amnesty International?

MW: On just the immediate issue -- and this is a point I made in my 
talk just a few weeks ago -- their behavior has been hypocritical. 
Amnesty International, which is probably the most prestigious 
international organization for political prisoners, has taken the 
view that those people who are incarcerated or punished for free 
speech that is labeled "hateful" don't deserve their support. Amnesty 
International has shown its hypocrisy, and the limitations of its 
adherence to its own principles, in the Zundel case.

But there's more than that. It's outrageous that the American media 
have failed to publicize the Zundel case or to denounce the treatment 
of Zundel fervently or in any really meaningful way.

It's really part of a larger problem. In a number of European 
countries -- France, Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands and so 
forth -- it's a crime to dispute the official version of World War II 
history about the Holocaust. My point is that it's a real failure 
that there has not been more outrage about the very existence of 
these laws.

KAS: Yes.

MW: This is the only chapter of history that receives this kind of 
judicial protection -- or, to put it another way, it's a form of 
selective justice. And selective justice is not justice. It's a form 
of injustice. And these laws exist because Jewish groups have 
agitated and promoted and pushed for these laws. Because for Jewish 
groups, the Holocaust story is a very very important pillar of their 
psychology, and of their media and cultural role in our society. And 
anyone who pays even the slightest attention realizes the extent to 
which the Holocaust has the kind of iconic status it does in our 
society.

KAS: The Jewish power structure has been able to get these laws 
enacted in many European countries, whereas they do not have similar 
laws -- at least, not yet -- in the United States.

However, it's sort of ironic that in Europe there seems to be a much 
greater awareness of Jewish power and the toxic nature of Jewish 
power than there is in the United States. Do you think that this will 
be a factor in how the Zundel case is seen in Europe?

MW: Well, I'm not as close as I'd like to be to the situation in 
Europe. But there does seem to be a shift in Europe about a lot of 
this. It's been 60 years now since the end of World War II in Europe, 
and all of these kinds of laws and this kind of special emphasis on 
Jewish suffering -- almost to the exclusion of, and certainly 
overshadowing, the suffering of other peoples -- is pretty tiring to 
millions and millions of people, not only in Europe but around the 
world. But it's put up with by a lot of people who don't really care 
what the implications are and so forth.

I think it is harder and harder for a state -- Germany or other 
states -- to justify putting people in jail for expressing a 
dissident view about this one chapter in history, and yet not 
punishing people for dissident views on other subjects. It's a 
violation of the proclaimed ideals of democracy that these countries 
all claim to support.

KAS: Are these offenses under which Ernst Zundel is now charged in 
Germany bailable offenses? I would think that they would be.

MW: In principle, yes. But Ernst Zundel is a special case, for 
several reasons -- and not just because of his prominence. It's also 
because he has no real residence in Germany. He hasn't lived in 
Germany for 40 to 45 years. Normally bail is given when a person has 
a normal residence in a place. It's fairly easy for the state 
prosecutor to argue that he shouldn't be given bail on the basis that 
he's likely to leave the country. Indeed, he wants to leave the 
country. He doesn't want to be there. He was forced to be there. 
Normally, he might be given bail. But in this particular situation, 
it's hard to see. It's also hard to see how the state -- without 
looking ludicrous -- is going to try and enforce the law in this 
case, given the fact that -- as I mentioned -- he's been in solitary 
confinement for two years and can't control the Web site that's 
supposedly the center of the offense.

***

Be sure to be with us when we continue this important broadcast, 
"Zundel's Persecution: By Order of the Jews," next week on American 
Dissident Voices.

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The text above is based on a broadcast of the American Dissident 
Voices radio program sponsored by National Vanguard Books.

It is distributed by e-mail each Saturday to subscribers of ADV-list.