ZGram - 2/25/2003 - Free Ernst Zundel / Weber's ADV Interview]

[irimland@zundelsite.org]

>ZGram - Where Truth is Destiny - Now more than ever!

February 25, 2003

Good Morning from the Zundelsite:

There is really nothing definite to report about Ernst's situation 
that should be announced on the  Net at this time.  I did get to talk 
to him today, and he seemed in a surprisingly mellow, even upbeat 
mood.  I have been so busy all day with organizing our documentation 
I haven't even been able to skim  my favorite websites.

For those who haven't seen it yet, this radio broadcast interview 
should be of interest:

[START]

>
FREE ERNST ZUNDEL

>An Interview with Mark Weber by Kevin Alfred Strom
>American Dissident Voices Broadcast of February 22, 2003 
>http://www.natall.com/
>
>
>KAS: Welcome to American Dissident Voices. Today we welcome to our
>microphones for the third time the director of the Institute for
>Historical Review, Mr. Mark Weber. Welcome, Mark.
>
>MW: Good evening, Kevin.
>
>KAS: Eight years ago I interviewed Ernst Zundel on this radio program.
>Mr. Zundel was living in Canada at that time; he had just survived a
>firebombing of his home, an obvious attempt on his life, one of several
>documented assassination attempts. Ernst Zundel has been involved in
>publishing, broadcasting, and in legal battles over many years in an
>effort to get past the wartime propaganda and speak the truth about his
>people, the German people -- particularly the Germans of the World War
>II generation.
>
>In recent years he's continued that fight from the United States,
>depending on the First Amendment to guarantee him the right to speak
>freely. But a few days ago, on February 5, 2003, that all changed. Can
>you tell us what happened, Mark?
>
>MW: Ernst Zundel was arrested in his home in east Tennessee. For a
>little more than two years, he's been living there with his wife, Ingrid
>Rimland. He was arrested by three agents of the Immigration and
>Naturalization Service, and two local law enforcement agents, and taken
>away to the local county jail. And then, yesterday, he was deported from
>there, and taken up to the Canadian border. He's now being held at a
>federal -- I.N.S. -- detention center near Buffalo, New York, in
>Batavia, close to the Canadian border.
>
>And there's a big three-way or four-way international tug of war about
>what's going to happen to this man. There was a lot of fear for a time
>that he would be deported to Germany. He's a German citizen. He's tried
>to get Canadian citizenship, but he was rejected. He was born in
>Germany, and there was fear that he would be deported to Germany.
>
>Fortunately, that didn't happen -- because, in Germany, as many of your
>listeners know, there are harsh laws that are very restrictive of
>freedom of speech. Anyone who, as they say, "denies the holocaust,"
>which Ernst Zundel is accused of doing, can be thrown in jail for five
>years. And it's happened, in Germany and in other countries in Europe
>that have passed these laws.
>
>But Ernst Zundel is instead, apparently, going to be deported to Canada.
>He lived in Canada as a permanent resident, or "landed immigrant" they
>call it up there, for 42 years. He still has some rights there.
>
>He's made headlines all over the world for his battle, as he sees it, to
>redeem and defend the honor of his people. And this is an immense
>struggle that he's fought: a very expensive one and a very involved one.
>He's fought it all the way to the Supreme Court in Canada. And it's cost
>him much violence. There have been several attempts on his life and
>attempts to destroy his home in Toronto.
>
>Finally, he decided to move to the United States, after marrying Ingrid
>Rimland, who for years has operated the Zundelsite Web site. The immense
>irony of it, in a way, is that the final legal battle he was fighting in
>Canada was over that Web site. I testified in a hearing before a
>so-called "Human Rights Tribunal" -- it's a really Orwellian-named thing
>-- in which the content of that Web site, even though it wasn't
>headquartered in Canada, was considered to be "spreading hate" against
>Jews. And all of Canada's major Jewish groups were involved in trying to
>get Ernst Zundel silenced and put in jail.
>
>Ernst Zundel is best known for two big legal trials he was involved in,
>the so-called Holocaust Trials in Toronto. These occurred in 1985 and
>1988 and there were a great number of witnesses on both sides.
>
>KAS: What were they trying to do in those trials?
>
>MW: The charge under which he was brought to trial was "spreading false
>news." It's an odd, bizarre, law that goes back to Old English law, and
>it's even been abolished in England. But he was tried there [in Canada]
>-- a Jewish woman brought the original charges against him -- and he 
>was convicted.
>
>But he decided -- and made a tremendous effort -- to put the "holocaust"
>on trial in these two great legal battles. There were a number of
>prominent witnesses, including David Irving. Fred Leuchter testified in
>the trial, he is an American gas chamber expert who, at Ernst Zundel's
>commission, went to Poland to the sites of the so-called "extermination
>camps," Auschwitz, Majdanek, and so forth, and concluded, based on his
>expert knowledge of this subject (he was universally recognized as the
>American expert on gas chamber technology because he's been a consultant
>to American states in executions) -- he concluded that the purported way
>in which Jews were killed in gas chambers could not have taken place 
>as portrayed.
>
>Even though at the first trial he was convicted, on appeal, a mistrial
>was declared. The judge, it was found, had been biased, and had given
>false or improper instructions to the jury. He went to trial again in
>1988. He was found guilty. But then it went to the Supreme Court. And
>the Supreme Court of Canada threw out the conviction because the law
>under which he had been tried all those years was declared to be
>unconstitutional. It was an unconstitutional law.
>
>And this is a point I make over and over: Every citizen of Canada should
>be grateful to Ernst Zundel for having won a victory for their legal
>rights. His battle made all Canadians a little bit freer by eliminating
>an arbitrary, out-of-date law that was used to silence people. And it
>was a great vindication, because the Supreme Court of Canada upheld and
>made many of the same arguments that Ernst Zundel and his attorney had
>been making over and over in both trials.
>
>KAS: So the trial did not turn out anything like the way his persecutors
>wanted it to turn out.
>
>MW: That's right.
>
>KAS: The Jewish establishment, or the "Holocaust Lobby," must have been
>very disappointed in the outcome.
>
>MW: They were especially disappointed, not only because the Supreme
>Court eventually overthrew it, but in the first trial especially, there
>was tremendous media coverage and the contradictions, even absurdities,
>of many of the prosecution witnesses was brought out.
>
>For example, Rudolph Vrba was a well-known survivor of Auschwitz, who
>claimed to have seen gassings of people. But in the 1985 trial in
>Toronto, for the first time he was questioned very closely under oath,
>by Doug Christie, Ernst Zundel's attorney, with advice and with help
>from Robert Faurisson, the French revisionist scholar. And Rudolph Vrba
>collapsed, basically. He admitted that many of the claims that he had
>been making, in a bestselling book about his experiences, were false.
>And he resorted, finally, to saying, well, it's "poetic license," it's
>an exaggeration -- basically, it's a lie.
>
>Another witness, Raul Hilberg, who is the author of a well-known
>standard work on the "holocaust" question, was also forced to concede
>things, too, that were very astonishing. And these were reported in the
>newspapers very widely at the time. Now the second trial did not receive
>the same media coverage in Canada, but it did still receive some. And in
>the second trial, Fred Leuchter was one of the most outstanding
>witnesses. Even David Irving testified in that trial. I testified for
>five days in the trial.
>
>The Canadian Jewish groups, and the American Jewish groups, were furious
>at the result, and have done everything in their power to silence this man.
>
>KAS: So, even after the Holocaust Trial 1 and Holocaust Trial 2 had
>concluded, and Zundel had been vindicated, they were still after him to
>close down the zundelsite.org Web site. Is that correct?
>
>MW: Right. One of the supreme ironies involving the "Human Rights
>Tribunal" was that they were declaring that a booklet called Did Six
>Million Really Die?, which was posted on the Zundelsite, was the first
>and foremost example of "hatred." The irony is that this was the same
>booklet that was the object of dispute in the two major trials -- and
>the Canadian Supreme Court affirmed the legality and the lawfulness of
>publishing and distributing precisely that booklet.
>
>So, as it were, through the back door, these Canadian Jewish groups
>tried to get Ernst Zundel silenced, put in jail, or fined, for
>publishing on the Internet what the Canadian Supreme Court said was
>legal in printed and published form! It's absurd!
>
>KAS: In addition to this, he was getting violence and threats of
>violence at his home in Canada. Can you fill us in on that a little bit?
>
>MW: He was the victim of numerous physical attacks by Jewish terrorists.
>There were, I think, at least three attempts on his life, including an
>arson attack. This was a devastating attack on his home and residence,
>the so-called Zundelhaus, on Carlton Street, not far from downtown Toronto.
>
>KAS: Now Mr. Zundel is married to a German-American lady of some repute
>as a novelist, lecturer, and historical writer herself.
>
>MW: That's right. Ingrid Rimland is a noted, even distinguished, author
>in her own right. She wrote a novel some years ago called The Wanderers.
>She's a naturalized American citizen. And one of the most bizarre,
>peculiar aspects of this recent arrest, which I still don't quite know
>the answer to, is how it's possible for the husband of an American
>citizen to be deported. Normally, that's not done.
>
>And Ernst Zundel has violated no law in the United States or in Canada.
>I know -- and many others can testify -- that he's scrupulous in obeying
>laws. But supposedly, having missed some procedural matter, some
>hearing, this is again a little unclear, he's being banned from the
>United States for twenty years! And this even though he's married to an
>American citizen!
>
>Now this is so unusual, this is so unique, that it gives every
>appearance of being a targeted action by U.S. authorities against a man
>for his political views.
>
>KAS: Now, Dr. Rimland -- Mrs. Zundel -- is devoting every waking hour, I
>presume, to her husband's battle for freedom.
>
>MW: Right.
>
>KAS: She has empowered you to be the public voice in this case. Is 
>that correct?
>
>MW: She's asked me to do it, because she is pretty distraught, pretty
>upset about all of this. And she says she's lost weight, and it's been
>very distressing, because it's her husband.
>
>KAS: I can imagine.
>
>MW: Also, she is so close to the matter, she felt that I could give a
>little more background or perspective to it all than perhaps she could.
>But anyway, I am doing this because she asked me to.
>
>KAS: Is publicity helpful at this stage?
>
>MW: Yes it is. There's been some coverage in the local newspaper in
>Tennessee; there have also been some articles in the Canadian press. But
>the more press about this the better. The more media coverage the
>better. Because it is really an unfair and unjust persecution of this man.
>
>As all your listeners know, there are millions of illegal aliens living
>here in the United States. For the United States to single out Ernst
>Zundel is outrageous. The only groups which have a big interest in
>deporting Ernst Zundel are the Jewish groups. And they've been very
>vociferous in their demands that Ernst Zundel be kicked out of the
>United States.
>
>KAS: Well, he had trouble getting citizenship in Canada, did he not? And
>Canada is famous for having a very lax immigration and naturalization
>policy. Was it due to Jewish pressure that he could not obtain 
>Canadian citizenship?
>
>MW: There were no real valid reasons given. His citizenship request was
>rejected, even though, as I said, he has no criminal record in Canada.
>He's been, actually, a very productive citizen.
>
>Before he became involved in this campaign, he built a very good career
>as a graphic artist. He's a very talented artist, and his artwork
>appeared widely and commercially in Canada, including once on the front
>cover of Maclean's magazine, the equivalent of Newsweek or Time, the
>leading news magazine in that country. He's a man who, I think, would be
>successful in almost any endeavor, any field that he had decided to go into.
>
>But even though he has a clean record as far as the law is concerned in
>Canada, even though he's been a successful man, a man who has been no
>charge on the public system in that country, his citizenship was
>rejected. And, as I say, all the Canadian Jewish organizations, and
>American Jewish organizations, were rabid and vociferous in demanding
>that he not be given citizenship, that he be silenced, that any pretext
>be found to shut this man up.
>
>KAS: So finally, I believe in the year 2000, he decided to become a
>naturalized American. He was married to an American citizen. He was
>living completely legally in Tennessee. He had followed through with all
>the necessary permits and paperwork. What happened? What was the pretext
>for this arrest?
>
>MW: It's claimed that he missed a hearing. Now, anyone who knows Ernst
>Zundel knows that this is a man who is extremely careful about dotting
>the "i"s and crossing the "t"s of laws and regulations.
>
>We're also told that his implicit visa or permission to stay in the
>United States had expired. But we don't really know yet quite what the
>actual reason is. Those are the reasons we're given. But they don't
>stand up, they don't make sense.
>
>In any case, it seems that the authorities have seized upon a pretext to
>nab him, grab him, and throw him out of the country.
>
>KAS: Initial reports suggest that the order for the arrest came from "a
>very high level." What do you know about that?
>
>MW: Well, I don't really know about that. But when heard of the arrest
>of Ernst Zundel I immediately thought of an American Dissident Voices
>broadcast just a few weeks ago about the activities of a Mr. Chertoff in
>the Justice Department, who has been taking measures to silence
>Americans whom he doesn't like. Now, I can't prove any connection -- but
>there do seem to be increasing activities by American authorities to
>find pretexts to silence people. We just don't know the whole story yet.
>
>But it's a very ominous thing, especially during the time that we're
>living in right now. Your listeners may know that the Bush
>administration is already drafting a new so-called "Patriot Act 2" law,
>which will give the Attorney General sweeping powers to arrest and hold
>people indefinitely as so called "supporters of terrorism" on very, very
>flimsy grounds. These are ominous developments for all Americans.
>
>And the Ernst Zundel arrest seems to be completely consistent with this
>effort by the U.S. government in its so-called "War Against Terrorism"
>to stamp down dissent of any kind.
>
>KAS: Indeed these are ominous signs.
>
>MW: One of my fears is that, as the attention of the world is drawn to
>the impending war against Iraq, measures like the arrest of Ernst Zundel
>will not get the attention that they normally would. Just as with the
>brutal treatment of the Palestinians -- which is now just incredible.
>The Palestinians are now living in a kind of quasi-ghetto or
>concentration camp. It's just unbelievable the repression that they're
>subjected to. But this is getting a lot less attention and has elicited
>a lot less outrage right now, because I think that the attention of most
>of the world is turned toward the prospect of a devastating war in Iraq
>that may cause the deaths of enormous numbers of people.
>
>KAS: Here we have almost an open border policy in the United States.
>Millions of illegal aliens are here. More are pouring into this country
>every day. They're openly flouting the law and taking over huge sections
>of the United States. They get away with it. The politicians offer them
>amnesty. And yet an artist, a writer, a lifelong pacifist -- Ernst
>Zundel -- dares to speak some criticisms of the Jewish lobby, and he's
>hounded like a felon.
>
>MW: Yes. You know, there are two contradictory trends going on in the
>United States. The same government that wants to "crack down" and ensure
>so-called security against so-called terrorism is the same government
>that permits millions of illegal aliens to live here. It's almost
>schizophrenic. It's crazy. Supposedly, since September 11th, some
>700,000 additional illegal aliens have come into the United States. At
>the same time, the American government is supposedly "cracking down" on
>security in this country. The end result of all of this is that it's
>only able to crack down on obvious and basically harmless targets like
>Ernst Zundel. People who are really dedicated terrorists can easily slip
>through all of this precisely because our laws in so many other areas
>are so lax.
>
>KAS: I understand that B'nai Brith Canada has issued a statement urging
>Canada not to take Ernst Zundel back. Is there some sort of deeper game
>being played here?
>
>MW: It's obvious. Both B'nai Brith Canada, which is their counterpart of
>the ADL in this country, and the Simon Wiesenthal Center, another
>powerful Jewish Zionist organization both in the United States and
>Canada, are both demanding that the Canadian government not accept Ernst
>Zundel. It's obvious that the only really important, vociferous,
>dedicated enemies of Ernst Zundel are the Jewish groups. No one else,
>really, regards Ernst Zundel as any kind of danger.
>
>To me, the outrage of it is that Ernst Zundel is asking for freedom of
>speech. The organizations arrayed against him are all dedicated, staunch
>apologists for a regime, namely Israel, that by all standards is
>violating international law: killing people, invading other countries.
>If standards are applied in any kind of consistent way, it struck me as
>I was testifying, that the lawyers of those organizations, and those
>organizations themselves, should be in the dock -- not Ernst Zundel.
>
>KAS: Indeed. It's a supreme irony: When Ariel Sharon comes to the United
>States, he's feted like a hero.
>
>MW: I've said it many times: If the United States applied to Israel the
>standards it applies to Serbia or Iraq or other countries, U.S. bombers
>would be preparing to bomb Tel Aviv, and not Baghdad.
>
>KAS: Do you think there is any plan -- or any chance -- that Ernst
>Zundel will be forced to go to Germany?
>
>MW: Apparently there seems to be no immediate prospect of that. When I
>spoke to him the other day, he seemed fairly certain that the next step
>is that he'll be deported to Canada. But looming behind all of this is
>the great danger that he'll be deported to Europe and thrown in jail.
>
>Just the other week, an 82-year-old man in Switzerland was forced to
>start a 13-month prison sentence: Gaston Amaudruz. He's an 82-year-old
>fellow. He publishes a little newsletter; and for so-called "denying the
>holocaust," he's now serving 13 months in a Swiss prison. Another man,
>Jean Plantin, has also been sentenced to imprisonment for his defiance
>of these same kinds of laws in France. And similar laws exist in
>Germany, in Austria, in the Netherlands, in Belgium, and in other
>countries. They're palpably unjust laws because they are selective laws:
>They apply only to one chapter of history, the so-called "denying" of
>the so-called Jewish "holocaust." No other chapter of history is treated
>in this way.
>
>KAS: Is there anything that our listeners can do, any sort of pressure
>that we can exert, to prevent this horrible miscarriage of justice?
>
>MW: They can spread the word, by notifying their newspapers, their
>Congressmen, and other people. They can get information about all this
>both from the Web site of the Institute for Historical Review, which is
>http://www.ihr.org or from the Zundelsite http://www.zundelsite.org --
>which is linked to our site, by the way -- which has an immense amount
>of information as well.
>
>Again, as Ingrid Rimland says: always be firm but polite. Don't be
>vindictive, don't use crude language. You can also talk to the
>immigration authorities, the I.N.S. Ingrid Rimland, in her recent daily
>messages, has provided lists of media and other outlets she is urging
>people to contact. But the main thing for information on all this is to
>check the IHR site and the Zundelsite.
>
>Robert Faurisson wrote in 1988 about Ernst Zundel, just before the
>verdict was handed down in that trial, and I quote:
>
>"Zundel may once again go to prison for his research and beliefs, or be
>threatened with deportation. All this is possible. Anything may happen
>when there is an intellectual crisis and a realignment of historical
>concepts on such a dimension. Revisionism is the great intellectual
>adventure of the end of this century. Whatever happens, Ernst Zundel is
>already the victor."
>
>And that's very true. The great victory is that Ernst Zundel put on the
>public record -- and made the world much more aware than it ever was
>before -- of the shoddy, fragile, and bogus nature of much of what is
>called the "holocaust" story. And he fortified -- immensely -- the
>international community of those people who have spent tremendous
>amounts of time and energy to look at this in a dissident way.
>
>KAS: Thank you very much, Mark Weber. I urge all of our listeners to
>contact you via your Web site and keep updated on this situation -- and
>to do everything you can to help free Ernst Zundel.
>
>MW: Thanks a lot, Kevin, and all the best to you.


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