ZGram - 1/29/2003 - "Dutch-Israeli military historian: 'We are destroying ourselves'"

[irimland@zundelsite.org]

ZGRAM - WHERE TRUTH IS DESTINY

	JANUARY 29, 2003

GOOD MORNING FROM THE ZUNDELSITE:

The ZGram reader who sent me this interview prefaced it as follows:

"The following interview of the Jewish military historian Martin van 
Crefeld by the Dutch magazine Elsevier was discovered on Indymedia by 
one of our readers. The views and opinions revealed here expose 
Israeli policy with a frankness only possible for a Jew.  (...) We 
recommend that our readers give careful study to this interview.

"The prominent Dutch magazine Elsevier has published a conversation 
with Dutch-Israeli military historian Martin van Creveld. The 
following has been translated from the Dutch [and then from the 
German]":

[START]

"We are destroying ourselves."

"In Israel a scenario of doom is taking shape."

Interview with the much reviled Dutch-Israeli Military Historian 
Martin van Creveld

Professor Martin van Creveld, an internationally known and 
controversial professor of military history at the Hebrew University 
in Jerusalem, foresees only extreme developments for the appreciable 
future. The methods by which Israel is currently combating the 
Intifada are doomed to failure. The chances for peace and the 
founding of a Palestinian state are visibly diminishing. A 
conversation with a pessimist, who, as he himself says, is reviled in 
his own country.

Interviewer: Your specialty is war. Is what's going on here war at all?    

Creveld: Certainly, although the Palestinians have no government, no 
army, and no [nationality]. Everything is in chaos. That's why we 
won't win the war, either. If we could identify and eliminate every 
terrorist, we'd win this struggle within forty-eight hours. The 
Palestinian administration has the same difficulties. Even in Arafat 
decided to comply with our conditions and surrender tomorrow, it's 
virtually certain that the Intifada would continue.

Interviewer: Are there any similarities on the Israeli side?

Creveld: If the dispute lasts much longer, the Israeli government 
will lose control of its people. For people will say: "If government 
can't protect us, what on earth can they do for us? If the government 
can't guarantee that we'll be alive tomorrow, what good are they? 
We'll defend ourselves."

Interviewer: So Israel is beaten in advance?

Creveld: On that I'll quote Henry Kissinger: "In campaigns like this 
the antiterror forces lose, because they don't win, and the rebels 
win by not losing."  That certainly applies here. I regard a total 
Israeli defeat as unavoidable. That will mean the collapse of the 
Israeli state and society. We'll destroy ourselves.   

Interviewer: Is there any point to the recent Israeli military offensive?

Creveld: This offensive is totally useless; it's only further 
enraging the Palestinians. Perhaps there will be a short-lived calm, 
but in the end there will even more suicide attackers.

Interviewer: Is there any hope?

Creveld: If I were Arafat, I wouldn't stop either. I'd only cease in 
exchange for a very far-reaching political accord. And it seems as if 
we have a government [under Sharon-tr.] that won't make Arafat such 
an offer. If elections were held today, the Left would be thoroughly 
beaten.    

Interviewer: Some maintain that it is Israel's foreign enemies that 
keep the country unified.   

Creveld: That's right. I only wish that there were foreign enemies, 
but that isn't the case. We've fought our external enemies for so 
many years. Each time there was a war, we took a mighty hammer to our 
foes, and after being defeated a few times, they left us alone. The 
problem with the Palestinian revolt is that it doesn't come from 
without, but rather from within. Therefore we can't avail ourselves 
of the hammer.

Interviewer: Is the solution, then, to keep the Palestinians outside 
the borders?

Creveld: Exactly, and right now there's nearly unanimous agreement on 
that. We ought to build a wall "so high, that not even a bird can fly 
over it." The only problem is: where to put the border? Since we 
can't decide whether the territories conquered in 1967 should be 
included, for the time being we improvise a little. We're building a 
series of little walls, which are much more difficult to defend. From 
a military standpoint this is very stupid. Every supermarket has 
gradually acquired its own living wall of security guards. Half the 
Israeli population is guarding the other half-unbelievable. Aside 
from the fantastic waste, it's almost totally useless.

Interviewer: Does that mean that the Palestinians stay within the borders?

Creveld: No, it means that they all get deported. The people who 
strive for this are waiting only for the right man and the right 
time. Two years ago only 7 or 8 percent of Israelis were of the 
opinion that this would be the best solution, two months ago it was 
33 percent and now, according to a Gallup poll, the figure is 44 
percent.

Interviewer: Will that ever be possible?

Creveld: Sure, since desperate times give rise to desperate measures. 
Today there's a fifty-fifty split on where the border should run. Two 
years ago 90 percent wanted the wall built along the old border. That 
has completely changed now, and if things continue, if the terror 
doesn't stop, in another two years perhaps 90 percent will want to 
build the wall along the Jordan. The Palestinians talk of "summutt," 
meaning hang tough, cling to the ground and the soil. I have enormous 
respect for the Palestinians. They fight heroically. But if we in 
fact want to strike across the Jordan, we would need only a few 
brigades. If the Syrians or the Egyptians were to try to stop us, 
we'd wipe them out. Ariel Sharon is leader. He never improvises: he 
always has a plan.

Interviewer: A plan to deport the Palestinians?

Creveld: I think it's quite possible that he wants to do that. He 
wants to escalate the conflict. He knows that nothing else we do will 
succeed.

Interviewer: Do you think that the world will allow that kind of 
ethnic cleansing?

Creveld: That depends on who does it and how quickly it happens. We 
possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch 
them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most 
European capitals are targets for our air force.

Interviewer: Wouldn't Israel then become a rogue state?

Creveld: Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad 
dog, too dangerous to bother." I consider it all hopeless at this 
point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if 
at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth 
strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the 
capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that 
that will happen, before Israel goes under.

Interviewer: This isn't your own position, is it?

Creveld: Of course not. You asked me what might happen and I've laid 
it out. The only question is whether it is already too late for the 
other solution, which I support, and whether Israeli public opinion 
can still be convinced. I think it's too late. With each passing day 
the expulsion of the Palestinians grows more probable. The 
alternative would be the total annihilation and disintegration of 
Israel. What do you expect from us?

This interview was conducted by Ferry Biedermann in Jerusalem.

Source: http://www.de.indymedia.org/2003/01/39170.shtml