May 31, 2006
SPIEGEL
ONLINE - May 30, 2006, 12:01 AM
URL: http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,418660,00.html
SPIEGEL Interview with Iran's President Ahmadinejad
"We Are Determined"
In an interview with SPIEGEL, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
discusses the Holocaust, the future of the state of Israel, mistakes made by
the United States in Iraq and Tehran's nuclear dispute with the West.
SPIEGEL: Mr. President, you are a soccer fan and you like to play
soccer. Will you be sitting in the stadium in Nuremberg on June 11, when the
Iranian national team plays against Mexico in Germany?
Ahmadinejad: It depends. Naturally, I'll be watching
the game in any case. I don't know yet whether I'll be at home in front of
the television set or somewhere else. My decision depends upon a number of
things.
SPIEGEL: For example?
Ahmadinejad: How much time I have, how the state of
various relationships are going, whether I feel like it and a number of
other things.
SPIEGEL: There was great indignation in Germany when
it became known that you might be coming to the soccer world championship.
Did that surprise you?
Ahmadinejad: No, that's not important. I didn't even
understand how that came about. It also had no meaning for me. I don't know
what all the excitement is about.
SPIEGEL: It concerned your remarks about the
Holocaust. It was inevitable that the Iranian president's denial of the
systematic murder of the Jews by the Germans would trigger outrage.
Ahmadinejad: I don't exactly understand the
connection.
SPIEGEL: First you make your remarks about the
Holocaust. Then comes the news that you may travel to Germany -- this causes
an uproar. So you were surprised after all?
Ahmadinejad: No, not at all, because the network of Zionism is very
active around the world, in Europe too. So I wasn't surprised. We were
addressing the German people. We have nothing to do with Zionists.
SPIEGEL: Denying the Holocaust is punishable in
Germany. Are you indifferent when confronted with so much outrage?
Ahmadinejad: I know that DER SPIEGEL is a respected
magazine. But I don't know whether it is possible for you to publish the
truth about the Holocaust. Are you permitted to write everything about it?
SPIEGEL: Of course we are entitled to write about the
findings of the past 60 years' historical research. In our view there is no
doubt that the Germans -- unfortunately -- bear the guilt for the murder
of 6 million Jews.
Ahmadinejad: Well, then we have stirred up a very
concrete discussion. We are posing two very clear questions. The first is:
Did the Holocaust actually take place? You answer this question in the
affirmative. So, the second question is: Whose fault was it? The answer to
that has to be found in Europe and not in Palestine. It is perfectly clear:
If the Holocaust took place in Europe, one also has to find the answer to it
in Europe.
On the other hand, if the Holocaust didn't take place, why
then did this regime of occupation ...
SPIEGEL: ... You mean the state of Israel...
Ahmadinejad: ... come about? Why do the European countries commit
themselves to defending this regime? Permit me to make one more point. We
are of the opinion that, if an historical occurrence conforms to the truth,
this truth will be revealed all the more clearly if there is more research
into it and more discussion about it.
SPIEGEL: That has long since happened in Germany.
Ahmadinejad: We don't want to confirm or deny the
Holocaust. We oppose every type of crime against any people. But we want to
know whether this crime actually took place or not. If it did, then those
who bear the responsibility for it have to be punished, and not the
Palestinians. Why isn't research into a deed that occurred 60 years ago
permitted? After all, other historical occurrences, some of which lie
several thousand years in the past, are open to research, and even the
governments support this.
SPIEGEL: Mr. President, with all due respect, the
Holocaust occurred, there were concentration camps, there are dossiers on
the extermination of the Jews, there has been a great deal of research, and
there is neither the slightest doubt about the Holocaust nor about the fact
- we greatly regret this - that the Germans are responsible for it. If we
may now add one remark: the fate of the Palestinians is an entirely
different issue, and this brings us into the present.
Ahmadinejad: No, no, the roots of the Palestinian
conflict must be sought in history. The Holocaust and Palestine are directly
connected with one another. And if the Holocaust actually occurred, then you
should permit impartial groups from the whole world to research this. Why do
you restrict the research to a certain group? Of course, I don't mean you,
but rather the European governments.
SPIEGEL: Are you still saying that the Holocaust is
just "a myth?"
Ahmadinejad: I will only accept something as truth if
I am actually convinced of it.
SPIEGEL: Even though no Western scholars harbor any
doubt about the Holocaust?
Ahmadinejad: But there are two opinions on this in
Europe. One group of scholars or persons, most of them politically
motivated, say the Holocaust occurred. Then there is the group of scholars
who represent the opposite position and have therefore been imprisoned for
the most part. Hence, an impartial group has to come together to investigate
and to render an opinion on this very important subject, because the
clarification of this issue will contribute to the solution of global
problems. Under the pretext of the Holocaust, a very strong polarization has
taken place in the world and fronts have been formed. It would therefore be
very good if an international and impartial group looked into the matter in
order to clarify it once and for all. Normally, governments promote and
support the work of researchers on historical events and do not put them in
prison.
SPIEGEL: Who is that supposed to be? Which
researchers do you mean?
Ahmadinejad: You would know this better than I; you
have the list. There are people from England, from Germany, France and from
Australia.
SPIEGEL: You presumably mean, for example, the
Englishman David Irving, the
German-Canadian Ernst Zündel,
who is on trial in Mannheim, and the Frenchman Georges Theil, all of whom
deny the Holocaust.
Ahmadinejad: The mere fact that my comments have
caused such strong protests, although I'm not a European, and also the fact
that I have been compared with certain persons in German history indicates
how charged with conflict the atmosphere for research is in your country.
Here in Iran you needn't worry.
SPIEGEL: Well, we are conducting this historical
debate with you for a very timely purpose. Are you questioning Israel's
right to exist?
Ahmadinejad: Look here, my views are quite clear. We
are saying that if the Holocaust occurred, then Europe must draw the
consequences and that it is not Palestine that should pay the price for it.
If it did not occur, then the Jews have to go back to where they came from.
I believe that the German people today are also prisoners of the Holocaust.
Sixty million people died in the Second World War. World War II was a
gigantic crime. We condemn it all. We are against bloodshed, regardless of
whether a crime was committed against a Muslim or against a Christian or a
Jew. But the question is: Why among these 60 million victims are only the
Jews the center of attention?
SPIEGEL: That's just not the case. All peoples mourn
the victims claimed by the Second World War, Germans and Russians and Poles
and others as well. Yet, we as Germans cannot absolve ourselves of a special
guilt, namely for the systematic murder of the Jews. But perhaps we should
now move on to the next subject.
Ahmadinejad: No, I have a question for you. What kind
of a role did today's youth play in World War II?
SPIEGEL: None.
Ahmadinejad: Why should they have feelings of guilt
toward Zionists? Why should the costs of the Zionists be paid out of their
pockets? If people committed crimes in the past, then they would have to
have been tried 60 years ago. End of story! Why must the German people be
humiliated today because a group of people committed crimes in the name of
the Germans during the course of history?
SPIEGEL: The German people today can't do anything
about it. But there is a sort of collective shame for those deeds done in
the German name by our fathers or grandfathers.
Ahmadinejad: How can a person who wasn't even alive
at the time be held legally responsible?
SPIEGEL: Not legally but morally.
Ahmadinejad: Why is such a burden heaped on the
German people? The German people of today bear no guilt. Why are the German
people not permitted the right to defend themselves? Why are the crimes of
one group emphasized so greatly, instead of highlighting the great German
cultural heritage? Why should the Germans not have the right to express
their opinion freely?
SPIEGEL: Mr. President, we are well aware that German
history is not made up of only the 12 years of the Third Reich.
Nevertheless, we have to accept that horrible crimes have been committed in
the German name. We also own up to this, and it is a great achievement of
the Germans in post-war history that they have grappled critically with
their past.
Ahmadinejad: Are you also prepared to tell that to
the German people?
SPIEGEL: Oh yes, we do that.
Ahmadinejad: Then would you also permit an impartial
group to ask the German people whether it shares your opinion? No people
accepts its own humiliation.
SPIEGEL: All questions are allowed in our country.
But of course there are right-wing radicals in Germany who are not only
anti-Semitic, but xenophobic as well, and we do indeed consider them a
threat.
Ahmadinejad: Let me ask you one thing: How much
longer can this go on? How much longer do you think the German people have
to accept being taken hostage by the Zionists? When will that end - in 20,
50, 1,000 years?
SPIEGEL: We can only speak for ourselves. DER SPIEGEL
is nobody's hostage; SPIEGEL does not deal only with Germany's past and the
Germans' crimes. We're not Israel's uncritical ally in the Palestian
conflict. But we want to make one thing very clear: We are critical, we are
independent, but we won't simply stand by without protest when the
existential right of the state of Israel, where many Holocaust survivors
live, is being questioned.
Ahmadinejad: Precisely that is our point. Why should
you feel obliged to the Zionists? If there really had been a Holocaust,
Israel ought to be located in Europe, not in Palestine.
SPIEGEL: Do you want to resettle a whole people 60
years after the end of the war?
Ahmadinejad: Five million Palestinians have not had a
home for 60 years. It is amazing really: You have been paying reparations
for the Holocaust for 60 years and will have to keep paying up for another
100 years. Why then is the fate of the Palestinians no issue here?
SPIEGEL: The Europeans support the Palestinians in
many ways. After all, we also have an historic responsibility to help bring
peace to this region finally. But don't you share that responsibility?
Ahmadinejad: Yes, but aggression, occupation and a
repetition of the Holocaust won't bring peace. What we want is a sustainable
peace. This means that we have to tackle the root of the problem. I am
pleased to note that you are honest people and admit that you are obliged to
support the Zionists.
SPIEGEL: That's not what we said, Mr. President.
Ahmadinejad: You said Israelis.
SPIEGEL: Mr. President, we're talking about the
Holocaust because we want to talk about the possible nuclear armament of
Iran -- which is why the West sees you as a threat.
Ahmadinejad: Some groups in the West enjoy calling
things or people a threat. Of course you're free to make your own judgment.
SPIEGEL: The key question is: Do you want nuclear
weapons for your country?
Ahmadinejad: Allow me to encourage a discussion on
the following question: How long do you think the world can be governed by
the rhetoric of a handful of Western powers? Whenever they hold something
against someone, they start spreading propaganda and lies, defamation and
blackmail. How much longer can that go on?
SPIEGEL: We're here to find out the truth. The head
of state of a neighboring country, for example, told SPIEGEL: "They are very
keen on building the bomb." Is that true?
Ahmadinejad: You see, we conduct our discussions with
you and the European governments on an entirely different, higher level. In
our view, the legal system whereby a handful of countries force their will
on the rest of the world is discriminatory and unstable. One-hundred and
thirty-nine countries, including us, are members of the International Atomic
Energy Authority (IAEA) in Vienna. Both the statutes of IAEA and the Nuclear
Non-Proliferation Treaty as well as all security agreements grant the member
countries the right to produce nuclear fuel for peaceful purposes. That is
the legitimate legal right of any people. Beyond this, however, IAEA was
also established to promote the disarmament of those powers that already
possessed nuclear weapons. And now look at what's happening today: Iran has
had an excellent cooperation with IAEA. We have had more than 2,000
inspections of our plants, and the inspectors have obtained more than 1,000
pages of documentation from us. Their cameras are installed in our nuclear
centers. IAEA has emphasized in all its reports that there are no
indications of any irregularities in Iran. That is one side of this matter.
SPIEGEL: IAEA doesn't quite share your view of this
matter.
Ahmadinejad: But the other side is that there are a
number of countries that possess both nuclear energy and nuclear weapons.
They use their atomic weapons to threaten other peoples. And it is these
powers who say that they are worried about Iran deviating from the path of
peaceful use of atomic energy. We say that these powers are free to monitor
us if they are worried. But what these powers say is that the Iranians must
not complete the nuclear fuel cycle because deviation from peaceful use
might then be possible. What we say is that these countries themselves have
long deviated from peaceful usage. These powers have no right to talk to us
in this manner. This order is unjust and unsustainable.
SPIEGEL: But, Mr. President, the key question is: How
dangerous will this world become if even more countries become nuclear
powers -- if a country like Iran, whose president makes threats, builds the
bomb in a crisis-ridden region?
Ahmadinejad: We're fundamentally opposed to the
expansion of nuclear-weapons arsenals. This is why we have proposed the
formation of an unbiased organization and the disarmament of the nuclear
powers. We don't need any weapons. We're a civilized, cultured people, and
our history shows that we have never attacked another country.
SPIEGEL: Iran doesn't need the bomb that it wants to
build?
Ahmadinejad: It's interesting to note that European
nations wanted to allow the shah's dictatorship the use of nuclear
technology. That was a dangerous regime. Yet those nations were willing to
supply it with nuclear technology. Ever since the Islamic Republic has
existed, however, these powers have been opposed to it. I stress once again,
we don't need any nuclear weapons.
We stand by our statements because we're honest and act
legally. We're no fraudsters. We only want to claim our legitimate right.
Incidentally, I never threatened anyone - that, too, is part of the
propaganda machine that you've got running against me.
SPIEGEL: If this were so, shouldn't you be making an
effort to ensure that no one need fear your producing nuclear weapons that
you might use against Israel, thus possibly unleashing a world war? You're
sitting on a tinderbox, Mr. President.
Ahmadinejad: Allow me to say two things. No people in
the region are afraid of us. And no one should instill fear in these
peoples. We believe that if the United States and these two or three
European countries did not interfere, the peoples in this region would live
peacefully together as they did in the thousands of years before. In 1980,
it was also the nations of Europe and the United States that encouraged
Saddam Hussein to attack us.
Our stance with respect to Palestine is clear. We say: Allow
those to whom this country belongs to express their opinion. Let Jews,
Christians and Muslims say what they think. The opponents of this proposal
prefer war and threaten the region. Why are the United States and these two
or three European nations opposed to this? I believe that those who imprison
Holocaust researchers prefer war to peace. Our stance is democratic and
peaceful.
SPIEGEL: The Palestinians have long gone a step
further than you and recognize Israel as a fact, while you still wish to
erase it from the map. The Palestinians are ready to accept a two-state
solution while you deny Israel its right to existence.
Ahmadinejad: You're wrong. You saw that the
Palestinian people elected Hamas in free elections. We argue that neither
you nor we should claim to speak for the Palestian people. The Palestinians
themselves should say what they want. In Europe it is customary to call a
referendum on any issue. We should also give the Palestinians the
opportunity to express their opinion.
SPIEGEL: The Palestinians have the right to their own
state, but in our view the Israelis naturally have the same right.
Ahmadinejad: Where did the Israelis come from?
SPIEGEL: Well, if we tried to work out where people
have come from, the Europeans would have to return to east Africa where all
humans originated.
Ahmadinejad: We're not talking about the Europeans;
we're talking about the Palestinians. The Palestinians were there, in
Palestine. Now 5 million of them have become refugees. Don't they have a
right to live?
SPIEGEL: Mr. President, doesn't there come a time
when one should accept that the world is the way it is and that we must
accept the status quo? The war against Iraq has put Iran in a favorable
position. The United States has suffered a de facto defeat in Iraq. Isn't it
now time for Iran to become a constructive power of peace in the Middle
East? Which would mean giving up its nuclear plans and inflammatory talk?
Ahmadinejad: I'm wondering why you're adopting and
fanatically defending the stance of the European politicians. You're a
magazine, not a government. Saying that we should accept the world as it is
would mean that the winners of World War II would remain the victorious
powers for another 1,000 years and that the German people would be
humiliated for another 1,000 years. Do you think that is the correct logic?
SPIEGEL: No, that's not the right logic, nor is it
true. The Germans have played a modest, but important role in post-war
developments. They do not feel as though they have been humiliated and
dishonored since 1945. We are too self-confident for that. But today we want
to talk about Iran's current mission.
Ahmadinejad: Then we would accept that Palestinians
are killed every day, that they die in terrorist attacks, and that houses
are being destroyed. But let me say something about Iraq. We have always
favored peace and security in the region. For eight years, the Western
countries provided arms to Saddam in the war against us, including chemical
weapons, and gave him political support. We were against Saddam and suffered
severely because of him, so we're happy that he has been toppled. But we
don't accept a whole country being swallowed under the pretext of wanting to
topple Saddam. More than 100,000 Iraqis have lost their lives under the rule
of the occupying forces. Fortunately, the Germans haven't been involved in
this. We want security in Iraq.
SPIEGEL: But, Mr. President, who is swallowing Iraq?
The United States has practically lost this war. By cooperating
constructively, Iran might help the Americans consider their retreat from
the country.
Ahmadinejad: This is very interesting: The Americans
occupy the country, kill people, sell the oil and when they have lost, they
blame others. We have very close ties to the Iraqi people. Many people on
both sides of the border are related. We have lived side by side for
thousands of years. Our holy pilgrimage sites are located in Iraq. Just like
Iran, Iraq used to be a center of civilization.
SPIEGEL: What are you trying to say?
Ahmadinejad: We have always said that we support the
popularly elected government of Iraq. But in my view the Americans are doing
a bad job. They have sent us messages several times asking us for help and
cooperation. They have said that we should talk together about Iraq. We
publicly accepted this offer, although our people do not trust the
Americans. But America has responded negatively and insulted us. Even now
we're contributing to security in Iraq. We will hold talks only if the
Americans change their behavior.
SPIEGEL: Do you enjoy provoking the Americans and the
rest of the world now and then?
Ahmadinejad: No, I'm not insulting anyone. The letter
that I wrote to Mr. Bush was polite.
SPIEGEL: We don't mean insult, but provoke.
Ahmadinejad: No, we feel animosity toward no one.
We're concerned about the American soldiers who die in Iraq. Why do they
have to die there? This war makes no sense. Why is there war when there is
reason as well?
SPIEGEL: Is your letter to the president also a
gesture toward the Americans that you wish to enter into direct
negotiations?
Ahmadinejad: We clearly stated our position in this
letter on how we view the problems in the world. Some powers have befouled
the political atmosphere in the world because they consider lies and fraud
to be legitimate. In our view that is very bad. We believe that all people
deserve respect. Relationships have to be regulated on the basis of justice.
When justice reigns, peace reigns. Unjust conditions aren't sustainable,
even if Ahmadinejad does not criticize them.
SPIEGEL: This letter to the American president
includes a passage about Sept. 11, 2001. The quote: "How could such an
operation be planned and implemented without the coordination with secret
and security services or without the far-reaching infiltration of these
services?" Your statements always include so many innuendos. What is that
supposed to mean? Did the CIA help Mohammed Atta and the other 18 terrorists
conduct their attacks?
Ahmadinejad: No, that's not what I meant. We think
that they should just say who is to blame. They should not use Sept. 11 as
an excuse to launch a military attack against the Middle East. They should
take those who are responsible for the attacks to court. We're not opposed
to that; we condemned the attacks. We condemn any attack against innocent
people.
SPIEGEL: In this letter you also write that Western
liberalism has failed. What makes you say that?
Ahmadinejad: You see, for example you have a thousand
definitions of the Palestian problem and you offer all sorts of different
definitions of democracy in its various forms. It does not make sense that a
phenomenon depends on the opinions of many individuals who are free to
interpret the phenomenon as they wish. You can't solve the problems of the
world that way. We need a new approach. Of course we want the free will of
the people to reign, but we need sustainable principles that enjoy universal
acceptance - such as justice. Iran and the West agree on this.
SPIEGEL: What role can Europe play in the resolution
of the nuclear conflict, and what do you expect of Germany?
Ahmadinejad: We have always cultivated good relations
with Europe, especially with Germany. Our two peoples like each other. We're
eager to deepen this relationship.
Europe has made three mistakes with respect to our people.
The first mistake was to support the shah's government. This has left our
people disappointed and discontent. However, by offering asylum to Imam
Khomeini, France earned a special position that it lost again later. The
second mistake was to support Saddam in his war against us. The truth is
that our people expected Europe to be on our side, not against us. The third
mistake was Europe's stance on the nuclear issue. Europe will be the big
loser and will achieve nothing. We don't want to see that happen.
SPIEGEL: What will happen now in the conflict between
the West and Iran?
Ahmadinejad: We understand the Americans' logic. They
suffered damage as a result of the victory of the Islamic Revolution. But
we're puzzled why some European countries are opposed to us. I sent out a
message on the nuclear issue, asking why the Europeans were translating the
Americans' words for us. After all, they know that our actions are aimed
toward peace. By siding with Iran, the Europeans would serve their own and
our interests. But they will suffer only damage if they oppose us. For our
people is strong and determined.
The Europeans risk losing their position in the Middle East
entirely, and they are ruining their reputation in other parts of the world.
The others will think that the Europeans aren't capable of solving problems.
SPIEGEL: Mr. President, we thank you for this
interview.
Interview conducted by Stefan Aust, Gerhard Spörl and
Dieter Bednarz in Tehran.
Please write to Ernst Zündel, let him know that he is not
alone:
Ernst Zundel
JVA Mannheim
Justiz-Vollzugsanstalt
Herzogenried Strasse 111
D 68169 Mannheim
Germany
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